Swipe Left On Mediocrity: Part 3 with Heather DeSiena

Two excellent communicators. Zero good dates. What is happening out there?

In the finale of this series, Lisa and Heather DeSiena bring the energy way up — because we're talking modern dating, and honestly, it's a lot. These are two women who are accomplished, self-aware, genuinely curious about other humans, and somehow still eating dinner alone. If that's relatable to you, pull up a chair.

In this episode:

• The false abundance mindset — why infinite swiping has trained everyone to never actually invest in anyone in front of them
• The upgrade trap: why "the next one might be better" is keeping everybody perpetually single and perpetually disappointed
• Why nobody asks questions anymore (and why a man who can hold a real conversation in real time is apparently a rare and endangered species)
• Sharp edges vs. soft energy — how building a career in male-dominated spaces quietly rewires how you show up on a first date
• "My standards are too high" — said by people whose marriages Lisa and Heather would absolutely not want
• A live, unscripted matchmaking pitch that you genuinely need to hear to believe

Fair warning: this episode gets a little silly toward the end. There is a Divorce Curious dating game show concept floated, referrals are solicited, and Lisa volunteers to personally vet all candidates. We are not joking. Drop your nominations in the comments.

This is the final episode of the three-part Heather DeSiena series — if you haven't listened to Parts 1 and 2 yet, go back. They're worth it.

And if this whole series has you doing some honest reflecting on your own relationship, grab Lisa's free Evaluate Your Relationship workbook at lisamitchell.biz/podcast. Good questions, zero judgment.

Connect with Heather: Instagram: @heatherdesciena LinkedIn: Heather DeSiena

Want more Divorce Curious goodness? Sign up for my newsletter https://lisamitchell.biz/divorce-curious

Have a comment for me or a topic you want to see covered on the podcast? Email me at lisa@lisamitchell.biz

Connect with me on Instagram at @divorcecurioushelp

Transcript

Lisa Mitchell (00:02)
All right, welcome back. This is part three of the Divorce Curious podcast, my interview with the amazing Heather D. Sienna. And this one, if you are in the space of trying to date right now, this one is for you. I mean, we are two excellent communicators and we are exhausted by it all. Like literally the bar has never been lower. We share some stories in this episode about

that are kind of equal parts hilarious and frustrating. I, unfortunately, I think you're gonna find them really deeply relatable. If you're dating in your 30s and 40s right now, it's, yeah, there's things like the idea of false abundance mindset that kind of keeps people never really in or willing to work on a relationship. There are like men who just ask zero questions on dates. I'm really curious if guys find that girls do the same thing.

There's just no questions being asked, no spirit of curiosity. And then the idea of sharp edges versus soft energy. And where does that show up in your dating life? Especially if you're a woman who's been single for a while or dating for a long time and just kind of worn out by all of it. And then we talked a little bit on the idea of upgrades, right? Everybody's always kind of wanting to maybe just the next right swipe or the next connection is gonna be

the one. So maybe I won't give as much time, attention or effort into the person who's sitting in front of me because what if there's an upgrade? anyways, we get all the way into it in this episode. This one's a long one. If you haven't listened to part one around the art of heart level negotiations, go back and listen to part one. And part two was really all about the idea of sometimes no deal.

whether it's in business or relationships is better than finding yourself in a bad deal. So part one and two are up now. This is part three. We get a little silly. We kind of do our own and prompt to dating game and match. And so, you know, there might be an opportunity for you to slide into Heather's DMs if that's your thing, or, you know, think of some strategies you can use to get people sliding into your DMs if that's your thing. But either way, we have a little bit of fun. We get a little bit silly, but.

Ultimately at the end of it, it's really, I think something you're gonna find funny and heartfelt and hopefully encouraging by the time it's all done. So let's get into it.

Lisa Mitchell (02:29)
My god do we have to ⁓

Heather DeSiena (02:28)
All right, wait, let's talk about dating for a second. Cause I think you

probably have some thoughts on this too. We haven't talked about this, but I know that one of the really difficult things for me, again, thirties, single, single again, heading closer and closer and closer toward 40, I'm like, this sucks. Not only the dream not coming to fruition, but dating.

as someone who has been married, has been divorced, has been engaged, just has been through something serious. And at these ages, what's your experience? Cause I hate dating.

Lisa Mitchell (03:08)
Yeah, so I don't really candidly, well, I did, I've thrown everything against the wall. Like I was, know, 10, 15, I've been divorced for 16 years now. So there's been a lot of technological advances slash nightmares that have come out in the last, like, you know, we can talk about the technology evolution, won't. The bottom line is that none of them have been amazing.

Heather DeSiena (03:16)
Yeah. See what sticks.

You the dating apps? Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (03:37)
I will say that I think everybody who's been on the dating apps for any amount of time or has been dating period, no matter how you're sourcing your potential is you go through the cycle of resistance and then optimism and then horror and regret and then you swear it off and then you get

Heather DeSiena (03:37)
Same.

and then lost hope and then you cycle through it again.

Lisa Mitchell (04:04)
optimistic again and then like I feel like there's like a whole a whole

Heather DeSiena (04:08)
That's a great

way to describe it. I feel what you're describing.

Lisa Mitchell (04:12)
There's cycles, right? Like it feels very cyclical and again, not to oversimplify it, but I got dating fatigue because I am very optimistic. Like I labor under the opinion that I cannot be the only one who is like health conscious and educated and openhearted and.

Heather DeSiena (04:28)
Yeah.

If you're this amazing person

on a dating app, there must be at least one.

Lisa Mitchell (04:37)
I can't just be me,

right? And not to like hype myself up, but you do kind of have to hype yourself up, I think when, right, right. And so I think it's, buy into the opt, or bought into the optimism over the year in different cycles. And I'm not, one of my girlfriends and I were just having this conversation. I don't really have bad dates. Like, but.

Heather DeSiena (04:44)
It's confident, not cocky.

Okay? Because

you're an excellent communicator. Same.

Lisa Mitchell (05:00)
But

we were talking about the reason that we don't historically.

Heather DeSiena (05:04)
because you read people

well, because you can talk for three hours even if you're not interested. That's what's dangerous for people like us.

Lisa Mitchell (05:08)
I ask questions like nobody asks, right? Nobody

asks questions, but then at some point it's like, okay, this is either a coaching session or a forensic interview, like, or maybe a little bit of both, right? And, and, and they're having a great time and I'm enjoying it. And I'm like, it's, it's like the vibe, like it's cause I did the lift of the entire conversation and experience. If I'm going to get dressed up and leave my house, like to go out in public and people in hard pants.

Heather DeSiena (05:26)
It's fine. Yeah.

my gosh, you're speaking to my soul right now. This is my experience too.

Lisa Mitchell (05:38)
Like I'm gonna have a good time. Because I don't want to do that. Right? I don't want to leave my house and put on hard pants, let alone. Yeah. And then it

Heather DeSiena (05:43)
I put on makeup for this, okay?

I know, it's so much effort. And I think that's what's so tiring is,

yeah, and when you are someone who is able to pour into other people who can read the room, who can ask the questions, who can communicate clearly, that's really attractive. It is, that's not cocky, that's confident. And so people are drawn to someone like you who is able to make them feel.

Lisa Mitchell (06:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (06:14)
really comfortable and who shows up as a warm presence and... ⁓

Lisa Mitchell (06:18)
And it was engaged and curious. I'm like the lack of curiosity that comes

there. Why are you here? Like you couldn't think of one thing. Like I know your whole life story when you moved to your second grade teacher was like, I know every damn thing about you before we get to the main course. You know nothing. There were zero questions asked. Like it wasn't even like all you have to do is volley it back with what about you or what was your experience?

Heather DeSiena (06:29)
you

What do you know about me? What about me?

It's not that hard. I don't understand.

People really are awful communicators for a variety of reasons. I do think digital dating has made that worse.

Lisa Mitchell (06:51)
it's wild.

Yeah,

but here's the thing about digital dating that is like, which is why I push for FaceTime or in person preferably because the vibe is different. So I am like, let's get in the same room. Like if there's any genuine reciprocal interest, we vibe it. I want to vibe it out immediately. Like if it's Monday, I want to grab coffee Tuesday. Like I'm not going to build a false relationship because here's what happens. Anybody's clever on text, right?

Heather DeSiena (07:02)
⁓ good, okay.

There's, we'll field chemistry, we'll feel, yeah.

so you don't waste time.

Texting. yeah, well

and now people are running their texts through AI.

Lisa Mitchell (07:25)
Through AI, I know.

I dated back in the internet days when it wasn't even on mobile yet, right? Like we didn't even have apps. It was like web-based, right? Like I've seen the full evolution and it's like anybody can be clever. Whether they're using, know, Chad GPT or Claude or whatever, like when you can sit on it and ask a phone a friend or whatever you're doing, like anybody can be charming and clever in your DMs or.

Heather DeSiena (07:30)
So who are you talking to? I don't...

love it, yo.

when they have a lot of time to sit on it and run it through yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (07:52)
or when they show up on an app. And for me, it's like, first of all, how are you in real time? Like, does your brain click along? How quick does your brain work, right? Like wit is important to me. Like, can you string a sentence together and does it make sense?

Heather DeSiena (07:59)
How do you present in real life?

Can you keep

up with the conversation? Can you volley back the questions? Like, just can you keep up?

Lisa Mitchell (08:13)
Yeah,

the sexiest thing for me is witty banter. Like bring me a little like bring me bring me a little energy bring me I'll take a zinger to like don't be mean but like I'll dish it I'll take it a little bit. Right. Right. Right. But if somebody puts I'm fluent in sarcasm. It's like you're just a jerk who doesn't want accountability because you warned me that you're sarcastic. Right. Just because you're mean doesn't mean you're witty. Like these are two different

Heather DeSiena (08:18)
I love that too.

A little low-key sarcasm and like humor that genuinely, oh, if you didn't catch that, that was hilarious.

Right, that's not the same thing.

Lisa Mitchell (08:43)
types of communication.

Heather DeSiena (08:44)
Truth. I'm laughing

so hard because everything you're saying is so, so, so, so, so familiar. And so I don't think that this has changed much, whether we're talking a decade ago or now. I think it's just the mediums, the platform.

Lisa Mitchell (08:55)
⁓ no.

Well, and I feel

bad now, like my daughter's in college and they'll get like a Snapchat picture of somebody's elbow. Like that's a valid like exchange of some, you know, like to keep a streak going or something. I'm like, what are you, like, what? Like, I will say they are getting progressively more analog, which is, and in college, like they're having communal shared experiences, right? So they're in the same space, they're having.

Heather DeSiena (09:08)
What?

Okay?

That's a lot of what college is.

Lisa Mitchell (09:26)
Right, so I love it. She's she's boot up right now. She's got she's got the the sweetest boyfriend. He's a great communicator. He treats her like I tell him he needs to keep like she's gonna be insufferable if he doesn't like. Yes, which I love as a mom, but also I'm like dude. Yeah, yeah, no and it's it goes both ways like they're they're very conscientious or good communicators. They they you know have it have a really good balance of.

Heather DeSiena (09:30)
Okay. You like him?

You're spoiling her too much

That's cute. That's cute.

Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (09:53)
of being sweet and having their autonomy and there's no like weird codependency. I'm only happy when I'm with you bullshit right like it's it's amazing like her relationship is kind of goals. I'm like where are these words?

Heather DeSiena (09:59)
Sounds pretty healthy for college kids.

Alright kiddo, we're watching you!

Lisa Mitchell (10:07)
Right, right. Honestly, it's kind of encouraging to see like there is maybe a little bit of that swing back of like being in the same space, having shared experience. Like I worry as we get more customized and individualized, you know, algorithms, feeds, like nobody's watching like the collective experience of like watching the same TV show or.

Heather DeSiena (10:17)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (10:33)
because there's just so many options and everything's so customized to what the machine thinks you want to see. You don't even have like those common points of reference anymore where you can strike up a conversation with somebody, right? So it's, I have no idea where it goes next. I hope it's more analog. I've been on a long-term hiatus. I did have dinner with a guy that slid into my DMs. We talked for like,

Heather DeSiena (10:39)
You don't get outside of that too much. Yeah.

gosh.

Lisa Mitchell (10:57)
I knew of him, he knew of me, like we have mutuals and you know, it's a local verifiable clean police record, right? Like it was a low risk entry, ⁓ but again, I had to like pick the restaurant and I had to do, and it took us like three months to get in the same space. And then again, it was fine. I know lots about him. He knows what he sees in my Instagram stories, you know?

Heather DeSiena (11:01)
Yeah.

You can trust this. Yeah.

safe.

you

I

just have to say, so as you were talking about the curiosity thing, one of my two keynotes, that's it, I have two of them. One of them is titled Ask the Question. And I kid you not, one of my stories in that keynote is about a bad date that I went on.

Lisa Mitchell (11:46)
It's a universal experience.

Heather DeSiena (11:46)
almost identical experience

to what you described. And it baffles me too. It's like, when you're not asking at least a few questions, my interpretation obviously is that you're not into me and that you either you're so emotionally unintelligent that you don't realize how this is coming across or you truly do not have any interest in who I am. Both are bad. Both are bad. Men.

Lisa Mitchell (12:14)
Well, right.

Heather DeSiena (12:16)
Listen up. It is pretty easy. Be kind, be curious, follow up.

Lisa Mitchell (12:25)
I joke, I was having a conversation with another girlfriend and I said, the bar has never been lower. Like we have been lulled by mediocre and low effort that if somebody came with even the tiniest smidge of curiosity and good communication skills, like they could wife up almost anybody they wanted to.

Heather DeSiena (12:33)
I'm sad to say that... Yeah!

I don't understand it either. here's the thing. I am in no way, form a man hater at all. I think people think that from my content even sometimes. I talk a lot about the gender wage gap and about ⁓ that's

Lisa Mitchell (12:52)
No, same. love... yeah.

Yeah. But that's factual. That's not Heather's opinion.

Right.

Heather DeSiena (13:03)
Exactly right, Lisa. Like this is data and this is

a problem. And if you are someone who doesn't see it as a problem, then you probably aren't a man I want to be around. But there's no man-hating here. don't, you know, it's all men are awful. No, but for some reason, it sounds like we both are not meeting the right men in the right places. And I, I don't understand. I actually don't know what is happening there.

Lisa Mitchell (13:13)
Right.

No.

No, and you won't find a bigger

hype girl than me, like even professionally. If I have an interaction...

Heather DeSiena (13:35)
I'm like, is it me? Am I looking in the wrong places?

What is happening here? Because my last date was seven months ago. Okay. I too, I just haven't been interested, which is also tough. I had a girlfriend recently say to me, Heather, you have to start dating. Like if you, if you still want these things, marriage, maybe a child, which you say you do, you have to date. I'm like, damn it. You're right.

Lisa Mitchell (13:55)
I

We're having the same conversations at some point.

Right.

Heather DeSiena (14:04)
but I'm so tired and I just feel like I'm not meeting. It's not even that they're bad people. They're just not the right guy, not the right fit, not interesting, not communicative, not chemistry. What's the issue? Like, why is that becoming so common? Because I, even just us, it's not just me. It's not just you.

Lisa Mitchell (14:06)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. No,

it's pretty much every woman that I know who is single right now is, you know, here's, I have a couple of theories. Part of it is that they're, well, I don't know if that, I got a divorce curious podcast. You're asking the wrong girl here, but maybe we can crowdsource it in the comments and you know, I would love that.

Heather DeSiena (14:28)
Do you have a theory?

I wanna hear, help me date, I wanna hear.

blind leading the blind

actually give us a thought.

So if you have a, if you are watching this and listening to this and you're like, Heather, this is your problem. DM me, let me know. I am open to feedback or feel free to fluff me up and tell me to talk to you, you know.

Lisa Mitchell (14:56)
Right.

Or send us your

attractive, available, outstanding men that you know that would be, I mean, we can turn this into a matchmaker show, Heather. We could do a whole series on it.

Heather DeSiena (15:11)
That's a little dangerous, but

you know what? ⁓ Ladies, keep your eyes and ears open for me, okay?

Lisa Mitchell (15:15)
Listen, if you can do age of attraction, if

you can do shows like age of attraction and love is blind and you know, the messy messy bachelorette that's so messy it had to be pulled off the air. what, we have plenty, we have plenty of room to, to in between those things. ⁓ Yeah, I think a couple of things that I'm seeing, right, is, is there's, I have preached for years since the beginning of dating apps and online dating that there is a false abundance mindset.

Heather DeSiena (15:28)
I know.

love it.

Lisa Mitchell (15:44)
that why should I put effort into someone who isn't everything I want when I can just keep swiping? Because the next one or the next one or the next one or the next one or the next one, right? And this was even, right.

Heather DeSiena (15:44)
Ooh.

That's a good point. He's gonna be even more perfect. He's gonna do this thing

better. He's gonna look a different way. He's gonna whatever. Next, next, next. Okay.

Lisa Mitchell (16:00)
Right. So I call it pulling the upgrade, right? Like people

are real overconfident that they can pull an upgrade if anybody shows in this isn't this is men or women. I see. I see my girlfriends do it. Yeah. Yeah. You it's like if it isn't instant magic or somebody doesn't do all the right things, it's like, yeah, I can find somebody better. And then everybody's and that's happening even for people that are like in relationships, right? Or situationships like it stays vague forever. They they stay

Heather DeSiena (16:09)
I was going to say, I'm sure I have done that on these swiping apps.

There's better out there, yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (16:30)
vague forever because in case someone else better comes along, right? Or they think, and then the other thing I think that I see, there's just kind of a lack of courage, like a lot of rejection sensitivity and on both sides. So it's, if I don't ever approach or I don't ever try, then I can't be rejected. I think that's a lot when you are out in public or you're in places where you could possibly have a little meet-cued or strike up a conversation. I think that there's just such a huge

Heather DeSiena (16:31)
Yeah.

Yeah

Yeah.

Okay.

Sure.

Lisa Mitchell (17:00)
there's a there's a fear of rejection and there's a fear of public humiliation or public rejection because everybody's videoing everything now right you never know when somebody is going to be yeah I think there's just a lot there's a lack of courage and I'm not saying it's unwarranted like there are reasons where it you know it sucks it sucks to be rejected and you know I will say though if the few times I do leave my house and hard pants and something cute right right and

Heather DeSiena (17:12)
Yeah.

where that's legitimate concern.

and put on pants. Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (17:29)
And I, you know, if somebody approaches me, A, I usually don't realize, like I was sitting at coffee with a friend. I have, I have the funniest story. I was at, I was planning an event with one of my girlfriends and we go to the same coffee shop, like every, every three weeks or whatever we meet and do some work on it. And we were there and I love her and we're laughing and we're like into this story and this gentleman gets up and he comes over to the table and he's like, you know, at the risk of.

Heather DeSiena (17:35)
that you're into you.

Lisa Mitchell (17:56)
um, seeming creepy, right? I just wanted to say hi, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he, and he hands me his card and I'm like, Oh, it's nice to meet you. You what do you do? Right. And he's a, he's a realtor or whatever. Right. I'm like, Oh, it's a leader is somebody I could do work with. Right. Cause I'm in,

Heather DeSiena (18:01)
Wow.

You're all business.

I'm filling

my pipeline.

Lisa Mitchell (18:14)
So of course that's what we're going to talk about. then, ⁓ and then he made the comment and I, I originally missed it. And he said, I saw, I saw you two ladies here. and he said a couple of weeks ago and he's like, and I've, and then it got creepy cause then he's like, and I've, I've come back every day and sat there hoping I would run into you again, which is like,

Heather DeSiena (18:36)
Whoa, it's like,

is that flattering or creepy?

Lisa Mitchell (18:39)
I'm like, I'm a threat

management professional. You can't say things like that to me. Like immediately I am like police. I'm calling you, I'm recording your license plate. Right? And, and, at the time I was like, ⁓ you know, and he has his card and I shove it in the back of my notebook. And then I say, nice to meet you. And then my girlfriend and I get chatting again and she stops me when he leaves and she's like, Lisa, she's like, you know, she's like,

Heather DeSiena (18:45)
That's a good point, Lisa.

Like this is uncomfortable.

was she like Lisa he's into you

Lisa Mitchell (19:06)
He didn't give me his card. He wasn't talking to me. And I'm like, no, she's like, what do you do for a living? How are you so dumb? how did you like because I'm not I'm just assuming

Heather DeSiena (19:08)
He was talking to you.

Aren't you this intuitive

people reader? Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (19:21)
just want to get back to my conversation with my girlfriend and whatever random stranger, right? And then, and then I started thinking about what he said and I'm like, ⁓ right. And then I'm like, of course the one time I get approached is by somebody who's been, it had been three weeks, Heather, three weeks since we met at that place the last time. So if he's saying that's

Heather DeSiena (19:32)
It's something I don't like.

That's, I mean,

he was really into you and depending on how you feel about that, is that sweet? Is that weird? No judgment either way, but at least you get approached. I will say people, okay, okay, that's good to know because I've had people in my life, friends, family even kind of suggest that. you know, can.

Lisa Mitchell (19:49)
Yeah, I went with.

That's the only time in recent history.

Heather DeSiena (20:04)
Can you talk to someone at a coffee shop or when's the last time a guy talked to you at the produce section of Whole Foods?

Lisa Mitchell (20:11)
Right. Well, and everybody's

got their face in their phones all the time or they have AirPods in or they have. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (20:15)
My answer is like, that doesn't happen. That

doesn't happen for me. And I'm actually not sure, again, is that the normal experience now, dating in your 30s and 40s? I don't...

Lisa Mitchell (20:21)
Yeah.

Well, part

of it is, like we don't, so there's a thing that Vanessa Van Edwards, one of my mentors talks about and it's like signal amplification bias, right? Like we think we're so much obvious, more obvious than we're being, but like it takes 17, like 17 distinct different cues of attraction or interest before a man will recognize that a woman is interested in approach her. I'm like, I don't have time for that. I'm tired.

Heather DeSiena (20:33)
I like her. Yes!

Thank

gosh. I don't either.

think that's actually, I'm also not thinking that way. And I think that's part of my personal issue. I also, follow Vanessa Van Edwards. I think she's great. I love the human behavior perspectives and little tips and tricks. But if I had to pinpoint one thing that I suck at.

Lisa Mitchell (20:53)
I'm not making eyes at some dude across the room 17 times and right, right. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (21:15)
when it comes to dating and certainly organic in public, in the wild, I'm not a signaller. And it's because I feel awkward. And so even if I see a cute guy, first of all, he usually has a wedding band on so then I'm like,

Lisa Mitchell (21:24)
No.

Is married. You're

in the same rooms I'm in. We have the same problem. I'm like, am.

Heather DeSiena (21:37)
So then I'm like,

⁓ I can't look. Like I can't even look at a married man. I don't feel good about that. Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (21:40)
like I am surrounded by 95 95

% of my audiences historically are dudes and not an eligible one amongst the crew. Like I went to a conference I actually went to a conference. I was just attending but I was I ran a little research project because I'm a nerd right so I'm like okay here's my I I anticipate it'll be like 97 % men 3 % women here's kind of the age demographics I think based on the content and what I know is going on.

Heather DeSiena (21:50)
Yeah

Boom.

Lisa Mitchell (22:07)
And I walk in and I'm like, my God, I'm so good at this. Like I absolutely, absolutely nailed it. And I do this too when I go to like, like I'll go to football games, right? I'll go to NFL games or I'll go to, you know, college games or whatever. And I'm like, if there was ever like a target rich environment and not a single, like, I don't see anybody that I'm like attracted.

Heather DeSiena (22:11)
I've got this down.

This should be it.

Lisa Mitchell (22:32)
And if I do, they usually have a ring on, that's a hard pass for me every time. I'm like, how am I? I'm one of seven women in a sea of 300 men, most of whom are.

Heather DeSiena (22:34)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

How am I not meeting someone

worth going on a date with? Now, let me throw this out there because I think you and I have this in common. I also have worked in very male-dominated fields, every single one, even broadcast news. It's a world run by primarily men. And so when you grow your career,

Lisa Mitchell (22:56)
Always. Yep.

Heather DeSiena (23:06)
in those fields. I don't know about you, Lisa, but for me, I think that's part of what has happened. My mindset from a work perspective is I know how to walk into the room. I know how to gain the authority I need with men who are probably underestimating me. And so this is my persona. This is who I need to be. And I'm here to do business.

And I wonder if maybe those of us who have done so much work in these male-dominated fields have almost trained ourselves, even out in the wild, to just, I don't know, turn that part off, maybe?

Lisa Mitchell (23:50)
I call it sharp edges, right? Other people call it like feminine energy or whatever, but to your point, right? And I have a friend visiting and we work historically with a lot of the same clients, totally different context. And she is like the antithesis of my energy. And she's like, I have such different experiences. And I'm like, because they're like, A, you're super non-threatening. You've got like a very...

Heather DeSiena (23:55)
Okay.

Okay.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (24:16)
Like there it's sharp edges and soft edges, right? And, and, it were both great communication professionals. We both do kind of similar approaches, completely different. and, and we were talking in particular about one scenario and I said, you, you're not seen immediately as a threat or arrival, right? Or, or it. Right. Whereas I come off, like I challenge like, not because like, that's just, again, to your point, that's the role. Like that's how.

Heather DeSiena (24:19)
Okay.

Okay.

whereas you might be.

That's kind of your job. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (24:46)
Right. And she's much more kind of introspective

and more receiving versus more outward. Like my energy is very kind of outward focused and hers is very like kind of receiving energy. And so it's, it's, they're both effective. ⁓ but that initial perception of how we're going, how we're going to be, whether that's how we actually communicate or not, I think that initial kind of thin slice of this is my energy or this is, this is what this exchange might feel like I'm

Heather DeSiena (24:51)
Yep. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (25:14)
I've never been like a girly girl. I've never had soft energy. always joke, I'm like, yeah. Right, I'm like, I legit still have my Pilates clothes on by the way. I keep a blazer on the back of my, a blazer under cardigan and I wear my Pilates clothes and jump on a mic on a Sunday. you know, this is, that's, it's just a layer. It's all perception. But I think it's one of those things where I always, you know, I get,

Heather DeSiena (25:20)
You're wearing some pink right now though, it looks great. Look at the nail. we both got pink. Okay.

I love it.

Lisa Mitchell (25:42)
I get coached a lot. I'm like, oh, you need to lean more into your feminine energy and your softness. I'm like, well, that energy, that defaulting to that energy as my natural state of being is like a privilege I haven't had afforded to me a lot in my life. Right. And that's not like a woe is me story. It's just, a, if I lead with that energy, right. I, I don't get done. I don't have the influence I need to have to get what I need to get done. And right. And then being from a personal side, that energy brings

Heather DeSiena (25:46)
Okay.

from a professional context. Same. Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (26:10)
like predatory people or people who think that they can, you know, and so that's just been my personal experience. other people seem to just have a much more natural inclination. That's never really been the side I lean to. And, and to your point, I think that does get read as maybe unapproachable or disinterested, or sometimes frankly, like I've had the guy that actually, you know, tagged the sharp edges moniker, which I'm like, yeah, that's kind of fair, right? Like I do like.

Heather DeSiena (26:19)
Yeah.

Okay.

Lisa Mitchell (26:37)
I do have some sharp edges, but it's also, you it can feel like a lot of work to navigate a relationship with a partner who communicates clearly and has, I joke that, you know, boy, it's a lot harder to date since my standards got higher.

Heather DeSiena (26:45)
Absolutely.

High expectations. Here's the thing I throw out there though. I don't expect anything from a man I'm in a relationship with that I wouldn't expect of myself. And so that's my pushback.

Lisa Mitchell (26:55)
It's... it's hard. Yeah. Right.

Right. Well, and I don't even go

that far. like, I don't expect anything out of someone except for what they have told me that they'll bring. Right? So it's like, don't even put, like, I learned that my memory. Like, never, it's not about, you're not meeting my expectations. Like, these are words you told me out of your mouth that I should expect. Right. You told me this is what you're bringing and then you didn't bring it. So it's not me having.

Heather DeSiena (27:12)
There.

This is what you presented and promised. Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (27:33)
high expectations or high standards. It's you not honoring your own word. And to me, those two, you can blame it on me if you want, but like those two things are very different.

Heather DeSiena (27:34)
Exactly.

That feels a lot like my engagements. You just spoke a lot of some of the underlying dynamic. And yeah, I hate when friends ask, are your standards too high? Are you expecting too much? Are you stuck in a type? It's like, I don't think so. I think I just have, sure, call them high, but very reasonable, healthy, good expectations.

Lisa Mitchell (27:45)
Mmm.

Yeah, you know what

I find from the friends or the people that ask me things like that are the ones that are really dissatisfied in their own relationships and trying to justify staying in it.

Heather DeSiena (28:14)
typically they've got some unhealthy stuff

themselves. I've seen that too. That's another thing that I remind myself. Again, I really don't want anyone to feel like, you know, we're dogging on anybody or we hate it. Absolutely not. It's just these are important observations. And especially when you're single, and especially when life hasn't gone the way you want it to, and especially when you still have these desires in your heart, you do have to kind of find, I don't know if silver linings is the right term, maybe not, but.

Lisa Mitchell (28:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (28:43)
One thing that I've reminded myself with those types of friends, those types of conversations is, okay, looking at their marriage, I wouldn't want that. And I wouldn't want their husband and I wouldn't want their dynamic. So they may be saying something that makes me feel insecure or that feels off or whatever, but do they actually have it better than me?

Lisa Mitchell (28:59)
great.

Well, and most people who question your standards or make it seem like you're doing the most are the people who wish they would have done more.

Heather DeSiena (29:19)
who maybe have some regret or who are maybe exploring divorce, who are maybe, you know, I can't tell you the number of women who have approached me privately in my personal and professional life who have said, you are really brave. You are really brave for breaking off engagements, for being single, for, you know, doing this thing.

Lisa Mitchell (29:20)
Right.

The word listening to divorce curious podcast. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (29:48)
Like I didn't ask to be, I didn't plan to be. Yeah, but I love that you think that's brave. And I think the reason you think it's brave is because there's probably a little something in you that sees that and is maybe wondering could something have been different. And.

Lisa Mitchell (29:50)
Right, you're like, I didn't sign up for this assignment. Yeah.

Yeah,

it was really interesting when I separated from my husband because we had, you know, we were living the suburban cul-de-sac life. We had friends and we all had kids around the same age, you know, like it was, and you know, the guys that sit around the fire pit and bitch and the women would go on walks and bitch, right? Like it was, like we all knew a whole bunch about the inner workings of each other's situation. Yeah, no, it is allergy hell right now.

Heather DeSiena (30:14)
dream.

Don't mind me and my allergies, everybody.

Lisa Mitchell (30:34)
It was it was very interesting how it was one thing when you were all commiserating in your own misery and unhappiness. It was another thing when they saw one person make the change and disturb like everybody's complacency got real disturbed when they saw somebody pack up and move.

Heather DeSiena (30:52)
and

they start questioning themselves and their marriages and is yes.

Lisa Mitchell (30:56)
And then and

then everybody gets real twitchy. And all of a sudden, the people who were down to ride and commiserating and seeing the same things you're seeing and whatever you dig, they go away because they're afraid that the husbands are afraid if the wife leaves. Yes, if the wife leaves, the husbands are afraid that their wives are going to get the same bright idea and they're going to be screwed. And if it Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (31:09)
that it's gonna rub off on.

You're so right. This is fascinating. And I

have an example of this again, having not even having been married. I'm glad you told me this because this conversation is even affirming for me. Again, we have very different stories, actually a lot of yes. So this this last engagement really hard ending, I lost a significant friendship out of it. And it wasn't

Lisa Mitchell (31:35)
Lots of components that sound familiar, yeah.

Heather DeSiena (31:47)
really due to her, was due to her husband. And they are married. They are struggling. Have been for a long time. They're fighting really hard to keep it together, but I hate to say it, it's kind of like why, you know? And when seven weeks before my wedding day, I said, this is not right. This is not how I should be treated.

Lisa Mitchell (32:02)
rate.

Heather DeSiena (32:11)
This is not the marriage I want. We're gonna end up divorced. She was a bridesmaid, like that close. When I walked away, her husband...

Lisa Mitchell (32:18)
Mmm... Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (32:28)
called it, you know, you're a heathen. This is unacceptable. This is on Heather. It was his own fear of losing his wife, who was one of my best friends. We talked, I know all of their issues. She knows all of mine. And he knew, he knew, and he knew that when she watched me do that,

Lisa Mitchell (32:38)
Sure. Yeah.

And that's terrifying because he knows you know everything. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (32:55)
that it was going to make their already unstable thing probably a little more rocky. And unfortunately, part of their dynamic, it's borderline abusive. It's very controlling and manipulative. And he was able to say, we're not friends with Heather anymore. This is real, this is real stuff that happens. This is why it's so heartbreaking. I don't think divorce, I don't think,

Lisa Mitchell (33:01)
Yeah.

I hate that for.

you're a threat. You're a threat. Yeah. I know. And it's, so hard.

Heather DeSiena (33:22)
broken and get none of this is willy nilly. And so I would encourage anyone who is listening to this and thinking through their own relationship or feeling discouraged about not being married at a certain age or their story, whatever. It really is that important that you try it's not always, you know, you can't always help it, but that you try to be as intentional as possible in picking your partner and getting into the right marriage in the first place because

Lisa Mitchell (33:48)
Yes.

Heather DeSiena (33:51)
When this stuff ends, it's horrific for your heart, for your soul, for your mind, for your body. Like this is not willy-nilly. As much as we joke, as much as write, it's life-changing in a really hard way. And some people like my friend, the people in your suburb, they might never escape that either. Like this will change who you are for better or worse.

Lisa Mitchell (34:01)
Right. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (34:18)
So I don't know, I just, we gotta say that, you know?

Lisa Mitchell (34:20)
No, I really appreciate you sharing

that. It's interesting that had that whether it's a marriage that didn't happen or a marriage that happened and ended like the collateral damage and the response of everybody getting twitchy around you or getting protective of their own situation, afraid that your decision is gonna impact or influence somebody else is a...

Heather DeSiena (34:32)
There's damage, no matter what.

Yeah.

And it

adds then to the loneliness and despair. Because when you're the person going through that ending, like we just said, it's horrific. You're going through something so significant, that's when you need the most support. That's when you need people around you. You're already feeling devastated and alone and so uncertain of what's coming. It adds to it when there's then collateral damage. It's like, yes.

Lisa Mitchell (34:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, it compounds the loss, It

compounds the loss, it compounds the grief, it diminishes the support. mean, these were the people, I couldn't walk out my front door without seeing at least two of them, right? So it was one of those things where for me it was like, and you think you're gonna have way more support than you do, and I don't fault anybody for it. And that's, again, I didn't wanna do a podcast about divorce.

Heather DeSiena (35:15)
Yes.

But you don't.

Lisa Mitchell (35:38)
Divorce curious, I don't want to do this. Like this stuff is not fun or easy to talk about.

Heather DeSiena (35:42)
I'm glad that

you are talking about it though, because it also shouldn't be taboo. I have felt so much shame around my stories. You know, you've been engaged twice. You've, you're still not like what's wrong with you. First of all, I realized that shame is a liar. Second of all, I realized.

Lisa Mitchell (35:47)
Right.

Right.

Right.

always.

Heather DeSiena (36:04)
people really there might be a few people thinking that but most people aren't if anything they're like that was really brave i'm not sure i could have done that i'm glad you didn't get into the wrong marriage twice you know we're way too hard on ourselves in that and especially when there's shame wrapped up in it we're just yeah we that's a trap

Lisa Mitchell (36:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

100 % it's a trap. And again, that's part, mean, I had like being ostracized from friends and neighbors in my community. had, you know, religious trauma from my church community. I had my family that didn't, right? Like we could, we're going on like a five part series at this point, I feel like, but you know, it was.

Heather DeSiena (36:38)
Same! Okay, that's a whole nother episode.

right? It's so

taboo in some of these circles.

Lisa Mitchell (36:50)
Right,

right. it compounds it. then so it's like, the people you see every day in life, they go away, the people that have been your and if you practice a religion or a part of a religious community that you throw baby showers for each other and you're throwing like, you're doing life together until you're not right. then and so you lose that bucket of people. And then you have your family of origin.

Heather DeSiena (37:04)
that community.

That one's not the same. Yep.

Lisa Mitchell (37:16)
and your close friends and then depending on their belief system and what they're comfortable with or experiencing in their own relationship, then you're out too, right? And then you're like, I was left, I had like three people and I'll tell you what was interesting. My ride or die best friend, she's been my bestie since third grade. Like she was on the phone as I'm following the moving truck, right? Like she was there, she's still there, you know, like.

Heather DeSiena (37:20)
Maybe they don't understand your decision. Yes!

Good, good.

Lisa Mitchell (37:40)
like I had, I was lucky to have a couple of close friends that were like, no matter what, even when it broke, like we'd do cabins together for holidays with our husband, you know, like it, it had an impact ripple effect, but I, those friends stayed, which was awesome. And then I actually like some of the most supportive people that I had during my journey were people who I was not close friends with before, like they were far enough removed. Yeah. And then

Heather DeSiena (37:53)
Good. Good.

and maybe you connected on this new journey. Okay.

Lisa Mitchell (38:10)
And some of those people were just for that season that came out like, like literally like angels that showed up that, that could appreciate and support and give, give me some perspective and give me some friendship and camaraderie through those phases where the people I thought would be there. Like I will say like, whether it's a broken engagement or a divorce, like the people you think or like, feel like should be there for you or the people that probably will go MIA on you.

Heather DeSiena (38:16)
Maybe you just needed that at that time.

often aren't. Isn't that wild?

Lisa Mitchell (38:41)
It was so surprising to me.

Heather DeSiena (38:44)
Again,

I'm glad to hear this because even for me, even us doing this, I also keep asking myself, is this just me? this? So it's there aren't enough resources. There isn't enough open conversation about this. Otherwise, I wouldn't still have those questions and feel almost excited to hear that you have some of the same experiences. It makes you feel so isolated. It adds to not just the loneliness, but the literally alone.

factor when you are losing actual people and communities. It's just horrible and we don't talk about it. Even in it's 2026 and I feel like there's still some shame and taboo and like weirdness around this stuff. That's unfortunate.

Lisa Mitchell (39:22)
No, we just.

Yeah, I don't think it ever goes away. And I don't think it matters how long ago it was either because some of that, I mean, I've been divorced for million years now and I still get some of that. I still get some of that energy from people who knew me like the before life people, you know, and so I it's just it's a weird and and I've come to realize like, because Lord knows I've spent, you know, a decade and a half thinking about this shit at this point. It's it really is more about

Heather DeSiena (39:37)
Right?

and you feel like you're marked by it.

Wow.

Right, right.

Lisa Mitchell (39:59)
I don't have anything to do with it. It is more about their internal level of comfort or discomfort or the satisfaction they have or don't have in their relationship or their fear around what might happen or could happen or what would my life look like if I had to be a single mom with a three year old, you know, like I realize now and I have a lot more compassion because I was straight up angry, you know, like I was angry. It felt like I was abandoned and I didn't do anything wrong, but do what was best for.

Heather DeSiena (40:13)
Yeah. Yep.

I get that.

Lisa Mitchell (40:26)
for me, right? And it was the best thing for him and he'll admit it now. He's remarried and has a great wife and a, you know, like everybody landed where they should have. ⁓ but it was one of those things where it's like you, you took the hit relationally far outside of just the core relationship change.

Heather DeSiena (40:27)
I get that.

Yeah.

For people

to back away from that is really painful because back to the communication, see, this is also connected. I believe that we communicate as humans for two primary reasons. That's it. And one is connection. And so that added disconnect. When people back away instead of come in, is one of the, again, people are largely the same.

Lisa Mitchell (40:47)
Yeah.

100%. Yeah.

Yeah, it gets really quiet.

Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (41:10)
when we

sense that people are backing away from us and we're disconnected, that's that is not how we're wired.

Lisa Mitchell (41:17)
Well, and I think it's interesting to the justification for increased or decreased communication because like for me, it's like when I first made the change, it got real loud because everybody wanted to know, right? Everybody needed this, my gosh, I'm so sorry, what happened, right? They're waiting for the big story. And we didn't have like abuse or infidelity. Like it just wasn't good, right? It was just, it wasn't healthy and we agreed we didn't want our daughter to.

Heather DeSiena (41:28)
⁓ like what happened?

Yep.

Yep, just wrong. Yep.

Lisa Mitchell (41:45)
to expect that out of her relationships, right? So there wasn't any great scandal tidbits to really like excite anybody. So first it got real, real noisy and everybody's nosy and everybody's like pledging support. And then when they realized there's no story there and it's just you making healthy decisions and caring, centering yourself or centering yourself and your child, then it's like, ⁓ wow,

Heather DeSiena (41:48)
Which was really selfless. No. Yeah.

and then it doesn't happen.

Lisa Mitchell (42:12)
Well, gosh, if that could happen to you guys with no big problem, then it could happen to us and we can't, that makes us uncomfortable. then it gets, then it's crickets, then it's crickets. Yeah, it's wild. It's one of those things like I was doing communication a little bit before that, but after going through that experience, I was like, I have got to understand this because it was so hurtful. It was so hurtful to me.

Heather DeSiena (42:20)
discomfort.

Yeah. Yes.

Lisa Mitchell (42:39)
to lose

like all my core groups of support over making the right decision.

Heather DeSiena (42:44)
I, I, that resonates so much. And it also brings to mind our previous conversation about curiosity and just asking questions. I think the discomfort factor. So some people, you're right, intentionally walk away. Some people,

Lisa Mitchell (42:58)
yeah, huge.

Heather DeSiena (43:03)
I genuinely think just don't know how to support you. And so they go quiet because they feel uncomfortable. They feel awkward. They don't know what to say. They don't know what to do. And so let me encourage you with this. If there's someone in your life who is grieving, because by the way, this is real grief when you're going through this kind of ending, this kind of hope lost, this kind of dream.

Lisa Mitchell (43:08)
Right.

They don't wanna say the wrong thing, yeah.

yes it is. It's devastating. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (43:31)
devastation, it's real grief. If someone around you is going through a divorce, grieving, any type of loss, going through something super tumultuous, whatever it is, try to recognize your own discomfort. Be aware, right? Regulation, emotional control. If you can realize, this is my discomfort, not theirs, they still need me, I need to buck up.

Lisa Mitchell (43:49)
It's very important. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (43:59)
I need to get over that. Let me encourage you with this.

You don't have to ask the right questions. You don't have to do the right thing. mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Lisa, but for me, and I would guess you as well, when I was in some of those lowest moments, I don't care what we eat for dinner or if we watch a movie or if we're gonna drink wine or not. I don't care.

Lisa Mitchell (44:23)
rate.

Heather DeSiena (44:28)
sometimes just literally need someone on the couch. That's it. Just acknowledge me. And it was more painful to have no one there sitting with me on the couch than it would have been to have someone who felt a little awkward say to me, hey, I don't know how to help you right now, but I'm just gonna come over. I would have loved that.

Lisa Mitchell (44:31)
just show show up and just just acknowledge that something is happening. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. It would have been great.

Yeah. And, you know, I, I recognize that that's, it's kind of a big ask for people who don't have great communication skills or don't have it. Right. Right.

Heather DeSiena (45:00)
But it doesn't have to be perfect. That's the good part. It doesn't

have to be perfect. So get that out of your mind. It might be a little awkward. The person who's grieving doesn't care. They don't need, they just need presence. And so your imperfect communication and presence is so much better than nothing at all because you feel uncomfortable.

Lisa Mitchell (45:10)
Right. Well, and

100%.

than radio silence, than crickets, than,

yeah. I, you know, that's really part of like the original thesis behind Divorce Curious was I wish, like there weren't a lot of podcasts, there weren't any podcasts actually. Like there, you know, were a couple scenarios on television shows or whatever. And it was always some big scandalous, like a fair domestic violence or something, you know, like there wasn't really any.

Heather DeSiena (45:35)
Yeah.

Right. I

don't relate to that.

Lisa Mitchell (45:47)
Yeah, and there wasn't any

representation of my story. And there wasn't a place to go to hear other people share or to get support or find out about things like mediation or find out about what do I need to be thinking about financially or how do I like, how do I? Right, right.

Heather DeSiena (46:02)
What can I'm doing with this? What kind of therapy do I pursue? Like how do I heal? You know,

I still don't feel like we have a ton of that, which is why I was so pumped when you asked me to join this podcast and talk about some of it. I was like, yeah, we need, we need, I need more.

Lisa Mitchell (46:12)
No we don't!

Yeah.

Well,

I'm going to keep inviting incredible guests like you honestly. This is probably going to be at least a two parter, if not a three parter. see where I can...

Heather DeSiena (46:24)
Do it.

I'm down. I

know. I feel like we could talk for five more hours.

Lisa Mitchell (46:32)
We could, let's be so

for real. You and I finding things to talk about is never going to be a problem. I'm pretty.

Heather DeSiena (46:40)
Again,

there was zero prep for this conversation. And look, okay, look at how this ended up. We were both like, where is this gonna go? Where is this gonna land? I think it was exactly what it needed to be.

Lisa Mitchell (46:43)
No, which is

It was great. And

it even kind of like self-segmented. So editing will be easy, which I love because, you know, I'm lazy. So that's perfect. But I, ⁓ we're going to end this, this one here, right? Cause we know that there's always a TBD. You have an invitation at any time to come back and join us on Divorce Curious. I know that, you know, another, we got at least another hour and a half in there somewhere of, of, of meaningful things, but no, I think.

Heather DeSiena (46:56)
you

This segment.

Thank you. Thank you. I would love to. We'll make it happen. I know.

Lisa Mitchell (47:21)
we've covered so much. love that we were able to work in the brass tacks, communication skills, the regulation and the deescalation. think like that's just whatever your relationship looks like, or even if you're single and navigating new relationships, always, always. then, you know, the evolution, I still think, you know, if you have an eligible bachelor, you know, throw them in the comments, drop the ad.

Heather DeSiena (47:29)
Yeah.

These are good things to learn, to know, to practice.

Lisa Mitchell (47:49)
drop the Insta, you know, like we're gonna have all of our contact information in the show notes. We'll just put it out there to the universe. And I would love to host like the first meet and greet with Heather and whatever eligible man you might know in your community. I know we all know good guys. I'm so here for that. We could do a series and then the audience could vote.

Heather DeSiena (47:49)
Look, I'm open to ideas at this point, ladies and gentlemen.

my gosh, I'm almost scared. I'm almost scared. You know?

Let's do it online. You can mediate our first date.

Lisa Mitchell (48:18)
on who they like the best for the second date. I'm so here for it. Okay.

Heather DeSiena (48:19)
turn this into like a game show. By the way,

I would totally go on Love is Blind or Age. Yeah, I just watched that one too. I would totally do that at this point.

Lisa Mitchell (48:29)
Yeah, one

of the girls she did her first full story didn't get followed, but my friend Ashley was one of the girls on age of attraction. Yeah. Yeah. And she's, she's 38 never married, no kids. Right. So I, I do. I do.

Heather DeSiena (48:36)
my gosh. I'm kind of jealous. I kind of want to do something like that.

Okay, you might need to introduce me to her, because we sound similar. And it's

hard to find other women who are in this position. We need to stick together.

Lisa Mitchell (48:50)
Yeah, no, she's awesome and gorgeous and amazing and a badass and an entrepreneur

and a like, yeah, so it's not us ladies. not, I'm just, it can't be, I'm sorry. It can't be, the quality is too high. I'm just saying, but I digress. But okay, so we'll get the dating game show, but in the meantime, drop the ads, drop the handles, do some introductions. I feel like I would love.

Heather DeSiena (49:02)
It can't be all of us.

Alright, deal. Please, I'm ready.

Lisa Mitchell (49:19)
Boy, that would be such a fun story. That would be such a fun story. Our buddy Dave would flip out, yeah.

Heather DeSiena (49:20)
Wouldn't that be, can you imagine two years from now you're invited to the wedding and we're like, we

met through the Divorce Curious podcast.

Lisa Mitchell (49:30)
I mean,

we just reverse engineered the whole process. We started out talking about divorce and went back to the first date.

Heather DeSiena (49:34)
You know what I'm going to say and I

am working on more positive mindset. I struggle with that and your self confidence tanks when you go through difficult things like this, but much crazier things have happened so it could happen.

Lisa Mitchell (49:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

my God, collectively, yes.

Yeah. We'll just put it out there. We're gonna throw it out to the audience. Who's to say, I mean, things are so wacky right now. Who's to say it won't Accepting referrals. I'm 100 % positive about that. ⁓ We'll put your dating, we'll add your dating profile to the show notes.

Heather DeSiena (49:52)
Okay, I'll put it out there. This is possible.

That's what I mean. Weirder things have happened.

We'll figure out what your referral fee will be.

Well, that means I need to start dating again, remember?

Lisa Mitchell (50:16)
Let's get intentional

about this, Heather. Come on. We got to do this part of it. We got to do some of the work. The universe isn't going to just bring the hot Amazon guy. Okay. All right. So we'll stay tuned. This is a developing series of some sort, possibly a dating game show. mean, I don't, who knows? dude, I'm so serious. Like you have no idea how much I've already like pitched this in my brain of like a thing that should happen.

Heather DeSiena (50:21)
Okay, deal. I'll put it out there. I'll put it out there. You're right. You're right.

Developing story here, that's right.

Lisa, that could be a blast. I could see you hosting that.

I'm

in, so keep me in mind as one of your contestants. Yep.

Lisa Mitchell (50:46)
Okay, all right, you heard it here first.

You just scooped, Divorce Curious audience. You got the scoop, it's a new thing. Call TMZ. I hear they're looking for a new bachelorette, but I think we can do better.

Heather DeSiena (50:58)
Well, after this season's fiasco, ugh.

Lisa Mitchell (51:01)
Yeah, we can

we can do better. We can do better. You're you know, you are obviously superior. So we won't we won't say any more about that. But okay, Heather. Where can people find you? Because obviously now they know how incredible you are both as a eligible bachelorette, and also as a professional speaker keynote. Where can they go to to connect with you?

Heather DeSiena (51:05)
⁓

Right? Yes.

So I have a pretty unique name, Heather DeSiena. If you Google that, all the stuff's gonna pop up because I don't think anyone else has that name. So that's pretty easy. I've got the website, that's more for keynote speaking. So hey, if you liked what you heard today and you have an event, a group that you wanna talk through some of this communication work, I'm your gal, for the dating prospects, Instagram is probably best.

Heather DeSiena. And for the professional, and I am very active on LinkedIn, find me there. I love connecting, by the way. I really do. Like, it's one of my life's joys to connect. So if you want to reach out, I know. That's what I mean. Like, it's so fun for me. I'm curious. And I want to know about you. So shoot me a DM on LinkedIn, on Instagram, whatever. I will respond. I love.

Lisa Mitchell (52:08)
Yeah. I think we got introduced and we're on a call like the next day or something. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (52:22)
hearing what other people hear from conversations like this. yes, find me wherever makes the most sense for you. I would love to connect.

Lisa Mitchell (52:31)
send your eligible male friends. High quality, high quality eligible male friends to the ads. They'll be in the show notes. They'll be, yeah.

Heather DeSiena (52:33)
send your guys.

That's the key. They have to be

high quality. They have to be eligible. Okay. Let Lisa vet them.

Lisa Mitchell (52:42)
or send them to me first. I'll do a little forensic interview

coursework on them first and then then we'll we'll move the eligible ones onto the next round. But this is so fun. my God. my God. Okay. So everything's going to be in show notes and comments wherever you're watching this or listening to this year, you're going to get what you need. We'll send you to the right place. But in the meantime, if you are in that like, ⁓ I don't even really know what's happening. I'm not sure what I want next.

Heather DeSiena (52:50)
Okay, deal, This is great.

Lisa Mitchell (53:08)
I have made a super easy guide for you. It's the evaluate your marriage or it can be your relationship. It's a workbook. You can download it at my website, lisamitchell.biz/podcast slash podcast. You can get all the episodes there because I'm lucky that I know a lot of really amazing, brilliant, talented people and they all say yes to come on the podcast. So it's like my favorite way to get to chat with people I already love and trust and get to share with everybody listening and watching here. So Heather banger episode as prom.

Heather DeSiena (53:33)
So fun. So fun.

Lisa Mitchell (53:37)
I love it when we can deliver and it won't be the last, I'm pretty sure.

Heather DeSiena (53:42)
⁓ I'm already planning

our next conversation in my head. So I'll be ready. You better be ready to. Thanks again for having me.

Lisa Mitchell (53:46)
Love it.

absolutely. And divorce curious friends, you know, I'm going to end it like I always do and just encourage you to stay curious and keep your eye open for eligible bachelors that we can send to Heather. Love it. All right, you guys take care until next episode.

Heather DeSiena (53:59)
Stay curious. Ask the questions. Ask the questions.

Lisa Mitchell (54:07)
All right, that's a wrap, Divorce Curious friends. That is the end of part three of my amazing conversation with the incredible Heather DeSiena Part one and two are also live. Go back and listen to those if you missed it. If you just picked up at part three here with all the craziness around dating, you kind of started with the best part in my opinion. But I could have talked to Heather for another five hours and I'm pretty sure that you're gonna see her back.

Maybe we'll just give her her whole season and her and I will just solve all the world's problems. But I hope you've enjoyed this series and I know you got something really real out of it. mean, Heather and I both kind of brought it all and laid it bare here for the world to see in this series of podcasts and whether it's a communication tool or a moment of feeling less alone or just a reminder that you're not the only one.

navigating the stuff and wondering why it's so damn hard sometimes. I hope you feel a little better supported and maybe got some laughs along the way. So go connect with Heather, her handles and how to get her are in the show notes. She's as good in your DMs as she is on stage and we'll actually write you back. connect with Heather and if you know any eligible high quality men who deserve to be in Heather's orbit, drop them in the comments, tag them.

connect them via DM, just make it happen. Who knows? I would love to do a follow-up series on an emerging love story that started here, ironically enough, at the Divorce Curious podcast. So as always, I hope you stay curious, my friends, and until next time, be well.