Navigating Heart Level Negotiations: Part 1 with Heather DeSiena

What if the same skills that close a seven-figure deal could also save you from your next kitchen table meltdown? Spoiler: they absolutely can — and this week's guest is living proof.

Lisa sits down with Heather DeSiena — former news anchor, corporate negotiator, keynote speaker, and (plot twist) seminary master's degree holder — to talk about what she calls heart-level negotiation. Turns out, whether you're closing a business deal or trying to have a hard conversation with your partner without it going completely sideways, you're working with the exact same stuff: people, emotions, and the desperate hope that someone in the room stays regulated.

In this episode:

• Why "soft skills" is a terrible term — and why these are actually the most important skills you have
• How to enter a hard conversation with intention instead of just feelings and vibes
• What somatic awareness has to do with your next argument (your body knows before your brain does)
• The pattern interruption trick that can stop a scripted fight before it even starts
• Why the more emotionally aware partner carries extra responsibility — unfair as that is

Heather is one of those guests who makes you feel like you should be taking notes, and also like it's completely okay that you've been doing some of this wrong. We've all been doing some of this wrong.

This is Part 1 of a 3-part series — and yes, it gets considerably more personal from here.

If this episode has you doing a little reflecting on your own relationship, the Evaluate Your Relationship workbook is a great place to start. Grab it at lisamitchell.biz/podcast.

Connect with Heather: 

https://www.heatherdesiena.com

https://www.instagram.com/heatherdesiena

https://www.linkedin.com/in/heatherdesiena

Want more Divorce Curious goodness? Sign up for my newsletter https://lisamitchell.biz/divorce-curious

Have a comment for me or a topic you want to see covered on the podcast? Email me at lisa@lisamitchell.biz

Connect with me on Instagram at @divorcecurioushelp

Transcript

Lisa Mitchell (00:38)
All right, friends, welcome to another episode of the Divorce Curious podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and I have brought you an absolute banger guest today. I don't miss. I'm lucky enough to know a lot of really amazing people, but right? No, I'm super excited. just full disclosure here, we did not really prep a whole lot on what we're gonna cover today.

Heather DeSiena (00:52)
flattered already.

Really not.

Lisa Mitchell (01:02)
because we have yapped enough in the past to know that whatever comes out is gonna be exactly right and it's gonna be useful to everybody listening and watching.

Heather DeSiena (01:09)
Yeah,

it's gonna be a fun conversation no matter what. I'm actually excited to see where it goes because I feel like we have so much we could talk about. So this is gonna be fun.

Lisa Mitchell (01:18)
Yeah.

Yeah. At the end, we're going to be as surprised as you guys are listening to this right now for watching this. All right. So I have Heather DeSiena on the other side of this conversation with me today. And I, I'll tell you what, like, there are some people that you meet for the first time we were introduced by a mutual friend and a friend of our show here, Dave Thompson of Wicklander Zulawski and the Truth Be Told podcast, because good people know good people and yappers know yappers. And so we

Heather DeSiena (01:22)
Exactly.

That's right.

Lisa Mitchell (01:47)
We share the goodness when we get somebody who does a great episode. We all end up friends and trying to finagle a happy hour across time zones and geographies. yeah, so Heather is, I love that you are like the perfect mix of, as I know you, like the broadcast journalism professional, Like you're so polished and you're so well-

Heather DeSiena (01:50)
We all end up talking somehow.

Lisa Mitchell (02:11)
like there's no coaching at all, which I love. don't have to tell you anything. In fact, I'm taking notes on you. So everybody listening and watching this, you're in for an absolute professional level of journalism appearing on the other side of this conversation. You're just gonna have to deal with me because Heather's a pro on that.

Heather DeSiena (02:14)
Thank you.

more fun than the anchor desk though. I just have to say, again. That's right. This is raw, unscripted.

Lisa Mitchell (02:32)
I mean, yeah, there's no teleprompter though. So it's, this is unscripted. Yeah,

we are going unscripted, but you're also as if that wasn't enough, but you're a corporate negotiator, you're an entrepreneur, you're a keynote speaker, you light up stages, you help professionals across all sorts of industries, which, know, is near and dear to my heart, because we both kind of love to share what we love with other people and help them get better.

Heather DeSiena (02:58)
Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (03:02)
at what they want to do. So welcome to Divorce Curious.

Heather DeSiena (03:06)
Thank you. Yeah, it's a lot of stuff, but I think it lends well to whatever the heck we're going to end up talking about, right? And thank you for the awesome introduction. It's been a wild journey. As you mentioned, I started as a news anchor. I have a seminary master's degree thrown in there. That one doesn't always come up. I know, right? And then, yep, as you mentioned, I've also done big corporate negotiations for

Lisa Mitchell (03:14)
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, that's a plot twist. ⁓

Heather DeSiena (03:35)
the last about 13 years, and in the last year and a half moved into professional keynote speaking. I run my business as a fractional CRO, COO. I travel the nation speaking and teaching. Like you said, think we're both educators at heart. And I know from some of our chats that we just care deeply about how other people are doing and how can we leave people better than they found them.

Lisa Mitchell (04:04)
Always.

Heather DeSiena (04:04)
And

I honestly think that has been a common thread throughout all of these careers for me is like, how do I leave this better in some way? So yeah, I think you're right. I call myself kind of a walking dichotomy. I've got this very polished professional communication expert thing. And then I'm also sitting here drinking my coffee and I probably have lipstick on my teeth at some point. you know. Cheers.

Lisa Mitchell (04:29)
It's part of the game. keep it really real here at the worst curious.

Yeah, I always joke that people that are too polished make me suspicious. I want... Oh.

Heather DeSiena (04:37)
No one can be that all the time. Come on, even

on a new show, like we have mistakes and we giggle and things happen. So come on.

Lisa Mitchell (04:44)
I call them the shiny plastics. Like the people that are just so polished and never cracked the facade and you're like, you probably have bodies in your freezer. Like I am very suspicious. Maybe not bodies in the freezer necessarily, but some sort of something your breath smells. don't know. there's people that are too perfect have to have some sort of flaw if they have to work that hard to conceal it. That's an unofficial non-professional opinion by the way. That's just like a Lisa hot take.

Heather DeSiena (04:49)
Yeah.

You've got something going on under the surface there, right? But something, but something.

Yeah, it's a personal red flag. I get it. You know what's funny? I think though that a lot of people who maybe look at careers like this from the outside think that, oh, like, nothing's wrong. This is who she is all the time. Always polished, always professional. Oh, this is glamorous. No, no.

Lisa Mitchell (05:15)
my God, red flags.

No. Literally

zero of those things. Yeah, ever. Ever.

Heather DeSiena (05:38)
Right? I wish people understood that more, but maybe that's part of our job is to show that you can be all of these things and not only can you, you should be really human about it too.

Lisa Mitchell (05:51)
Yeah, again, I think that's what I'm learning, especially in this context, because like you, I speak on all sorts of topics and I'm in front of all different types of audiences. And the thing I love about the audience here is like, we're in it together, right? Like I've been through a messy divorce. I can't wait to get into some of your stories on your relationship trail.

Heather DeSiena (06:11)
hard stuff.

Lisa Mitchell (06:15)
I think one of the things I really am hoping for today is that you can bring some perspective with all the things that you know and do, especially around like you mentioned red flags earlier, right? So the communication aspect, what are you listening for? What are you looking for? What are things you're hearing around red flags? And then I think something that doesn't get called by the right name most of the time.

Heather DeSiena (06:32)
Ooh, so good.

Lisa Mitchell (06:40)
in relationships, call it conversations or navigating conflict, but there's such a huge amount of negotiation from that first date to getting the second date to moving into, know, committed relationships, engagements, getting married, and then of course, know, Yes.

Heather DeSiena (06:47)
Absolutely.

and just ongoing life with a partner. It's a constant.

⁓ yes. Yes.

Lisa Mitchell (07:00)
Always, always. I somehow

I think most of that's gonna come out today. And so, you know, if you stick around with us as you're listening or watching this, like I it's gonna get it. I feel like it's gonna get a little spicy because it just it's just I don't my god. Yeah, yeah, I love one of the things on your website, you know, that it's the knowing

Heather DeSiena (07:04)
Thanks, I do.

We might go to some places. We've got some stories to tell. We've got some things to bring up.

Lisa Mitchell (07:23)
when to speak, what to say and how to make it count. And I know your website is very like corporate facing and for the speaking that you're doing. But it's, don't think it's any different. Like how do you translate that or how do you see that translating into, know, for the people that are listening and watching this right now, like when to speak, what to say and how to make it count. what are some, give us some pro tips as we think about the conversations that we're approaching with.

Heather DeSiena (07:26)
How?

It is very, very keynote speaker. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lisa Mitchell (07:51)
with the people at the heart level negotiation.

Heather DeSiena (07:54)
love that you called it heart level negotiation because that's exactly what it is. And I'm glad you brought this up because while yes, the website is very corporate keynote speaker, so much of what I bring to the stage and the classrooms is, hey, everyone in here who came in here thinking that we're talking business, sure, but this applies to your personal life as well. In fact, maybe even more. specifically from the, you know,

How do we speak? When do we speak? Even why do we communicate? I think one of the first things we should consider is everything comes down to people. And people are largely the same. That doesn't mean that we don't have different goals, different personalities, different whatever. But people are largely motivated by a lot of the same things. That being connection. That being, you know,

Lisa Mitchell (08:48)
Yes.

Heather DeSiena (08:49)
clarity, understanding. When you understand how people are working on the inside and once you figure out how to tap into that, then whether you're negotiating a seven figure deal or negotiating your upcoming marriage and the terms of your life together, you're kind of dealing with the same things. And that's what people don't understand about

the heart of communication and negotiation, this isn't just skill. In fact, I would argue it's kind of not. I—you may have even heard me say this before because I—I harp on it. I hate the term soft skills. I hate that term.

Lisa Mitchell (09:31)
All day, all day, all day. Such a misnomer, yeah.

Heather DeSiena (09:33)
because these are not soft things.

In fact, these are more important than the technical skills that we're often taught in business, as entrepreneurs in classrooms. This is the more important stuff. It's getting into the mindset of the person you're talking to. It's having clarity about what you actually wanna translate before you enter into a conversation with your spouse. I mean, this...

Lisa Mitchell (10:00)
You mean we don't just

show up with our big feelings and hope for the best, Heather? Huh.

Heather DeSiena (10:03)
Weird, weird. I mean, I've tried that, hasn't

worked super well. How about you, Lisa?

Lisa Mitchell (10:09)
You know, my record's not great, so I, and I'm a very off-the-cuff kind of kid on the personal side of things, so I wouldn't, I would recommend a game plan. Listen to Heather, please.

Heather DeSiena (10:19)
Right? And that doesn't mean there's not room and necessity when it comes to quick back and forth and thinking on your feet. That is some skill and some practice involved. But yeah, even something like, hey, do you actually know what you want to get across? Are you responding? Are you reacting? How much emotional control do you have right now over yourself? And can you help temper that in someone else? That's advanced. Right?

Lisa Mitchell (10:26)
Right.

co-regulation?

This is like a, this is a level 400 class right here.

Heather DeSiena (10:52)
That's what I mean though, and that's part of what surprises people in my teaching and speaking is, friends, this isn't just in a business context. This applies to every area of your life. And the more you can hone in on these things professionally and personally, I think that's more important. And I don't always get to talk about that from a stage. So I love that we're talking about that here. think bringing that

Lisa Mitchell (11:02)
Right.

Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (11:21)
heart level stuff to your personal life, whether we call it soft scale or whatever we want to call it. Gosh, isn't that kind of the point?

Lisa Mitchell (11:30)
think so. And the funny thing is like, there's like, nobody books you because they think you're gonna be like, they don't think you're gonna be a double threat or a triple threat, right? They're like, business skills and winning negotiations and making money and leadership skills. and then you're like, let's take a look at you as a

Heather DeSiena (11:40)
Right. Yeah.

And then I get up there and surprise.

Lisa Mitchell (11:49)
person and oh, do you see any patterns that maybe smack familiar between how you communicate at home and how that shows up with you in the workplace and then you can kind of start to see these like light bulbs. It's like suspicion first of like how much are you going to make me think about myself? Yeah, and then then you see the light bulbs start to go on. It's like oh, she's not just like and you can do a whole keynote on nothing but business terms and that and you can see it hit people where they're like oh.

Heather DeSiena (11:53)
Weird.

Yeah.

Yeah. What is she gonna talk to us about here?

Sure.

Lisa Mitchell (12:18)
Yeah, I'm not so great at this. ⁓

Heather DeSiena (12:19)
wait a second. I find that

especially with leadership groups, leaders, they do, they just naturally have something different in them. That's what often makes really great leaders can also lead to really terrible leaders. And once they really understand, hey, again, this isn't so much about the strategy, this isn't so much about the metrics, it's about the people around you and under you and above you.

Lisa Mitchell (12:31)
Uh-huh.

Right.

Heather DeSiena (12:46)
and how you are interacting with them and how you are translating to them and are you able to be what they need in those moments, prioritize the people that's gonna get you to the performance. So business leaders, that's the most fun. Cause when that light bulb turns on, game changer.

Lisa Mitchell (13:06)
Yeah, I love to see the breakthrough and I like the conviction sometimes. Like you can see conviction hit somebody's face when you're talking about like the optimal way to maybe approach something or how to bring people into those decisions. And they're like, ⁓ like it always amazes me. Right. When you're sitting with a group of. Right.

Heather DeSiena (13:14)
Yeah.

Maybe I haven't done it that way. Yeah. And we've all made those mistakes. The reason you and

I are able to get up there and talk about these things is because we've learned it the hard way too. So again, we got to show and be vulnerable and be human. We've made the mistakes. That's right.

Lisa Mitchell (13:30)
Yeah. Yeah.

doing the Lord's work right there. Yeah,

I always joke it's all fun and games like on a lot of big projects. We spend so much time talking about the technology and the staging and the timing and the budget and the specs and the requirements and it's all fun and games until the people show up. And then your plans don't matter if your people aren't bought in. And so it's the most overlooked underplanned part of any major, mean,

Heather DeSiena (13:56)
No.

Lisa Mitchell (14:01)
companies will drop $100 million on a giant technology transformation and then be like, now we're good on change management. We don't really need it. Like people will just do it. I'm like, or will they?

Heather DeSiena (14:10)
No. What a waste. What a waste

of money and time because you didn't think about that and plan that. The most important part, the people from the get-go. Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (14:19)
Right. Yes.

So let's translate this into relationship context here. not that it's, for me, it's readily apparent. I don't make any assumptions about what tracks with other people. if we're looking at, let's just start with, you brought up so many great points. Let's talk about intentional communication. the when, when, where, and what's. Like how do you,

Heather DeSiena (14:26)
Yeah.

Sure.

Lisa Mitchell (14:45)
not be just the reactor or the bull in the china shop. Like how do you how do you kind of approach the strategy in those more personal conversations?

Heather DeSiena (14:54)
Yeah, that's a great question. And I think for me personally, and what I would certainly recommend for people listening, before you head into any conversation that you know is probably gonna be a little difficult. These are hard conversations, right? Relationships are hard. They can be wonderful, but it's difficult.

Lisa Mitchell (15:16)
They're spicy, no doubt. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (15:21)
to do life with someone else because you're very different people. Before you head into any conversation that you know is going to be difficult, you have to, again, intentionally think through what outcome am I hoping for, right? You don't just head into it to unleash. You don't just head into it because I have something to say. Wonderful, but why? So I think

Lisa Mitchell (15:36)
there it is, right there, right there. Yep, there it is.

Right.

Heather DeSiena (15:50)
in these personal relational conversations, we still have to know our why because that's going to help guide the conversation. Once you have your why, what am I hoping for here? What's the outcome I'm going for? Why am I about to have this conversation? Then I would suggest you take a minute. Maybe that's maybe that's overnight.

Maybe that's maybe you don't have that much time. Okay, head head to your quiet spot for just a little bit to make sure that you've really got it right. Think through, okay, what's going to come up? How do I want to say it? If if everything goes perfectly, how do I want this to come out of my mouth? Because because typically once things get heated and emotions run wild, it doesn't really come out of your mouth the way you want it to, does it?

Lisa Mitchell (16:33)
⁓ that's such a good frame. Yeah.

No,

and that's not when I'm my most elegant and controlled. No.

Heather DeSiena (16:44)
No,

same. And so if you can practice that as silly as that sounds, even rehearse it in your head a little bit, then as soon as your nervous system takes over and you're in the moment, still not a guarantee, but it's more likely that you're going to mentally be able to come back to this is why I'm doing this. This is what I'm trying to say. I think that's the best preparation going into any of these really hard conversations. And then, of course, we get more into

you can and should intentionally try not to keep raising the emotional heat, shall we say. You want to intentionally try to keep actually bringing it down, especially if you're better at this than your partner. You shouldn't have to, and that drives me nuts. You shouldn't have to, but relationships are never 50-50. If you're better at this than your partner, then

Lisa Mitchell (17:20)
Hmm

⁓ not a fair fight. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (17:43)
I don't know, maybe it's some extra responsibility or onus on you to just to try to help bring both of you down so that you can have a productive conversation. Otherwise you won't. That's something that I have experienced and that I've seen quite often is this escalation pattern. And that happens in business negotiations too. Right? So again, this translates.

Lisa Mitchell (17:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

yes, it does. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Often. Frequently.

Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (18:13)
But

I think that is one of the number one disasters, potential disasters in a conversation. It will derail things. So the more intentional we can be about not letting that happen, the better off we are.

Lisa Mitchell (18:29)
Okay, so let's make this super tactical because part of why divorce curious exists is to like give people listening and watching this something they walk out the door with and can use today. So let's say I'm in a relationship or I'm dating somebody or I'm partnered and the conversation starts with maybe a criticism or a...

Heather DeSiena (18:39)
Yeah.

Well, that's a hard startup,

isn't it?

Lisa Mitchell (18:53)
articulated

disappointment and it doesn't seem like the big deal to the mouth that came out of, but to the person that received it, it's like, and then the scripts come out, right? Like this is why you're terrible and this is why you're terrible and this is why you're always wrong and this is why I'm always wrong. If you are staring down the path of a script, You know how, we've had this argument so many times. What is there?

Heather DeSiena (19:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Lisa Mitchell (19:18)
Are there some good tips around like maybe pattern interruption or even like behaviors that again, it's usually one person over the other that has a little bit more awareness and can kind of steer whether we're going straight into the brick wall or whether we can avoid it. there any like tactical things that somebody can do when they're like, here we go, here we go.

Heather DeSiena (19:27)
Yeah.

You're right. Right.

Yeah, absolutely. I think I'm actually thinking to a specific conversation that's burned in my brain with an X. ⁓

Lisa Mitchell (19:46)
We had it. had it. I had a script.

Yeah. That's why I'm like, I'm asking for myself as much as anybody else.

Heather DeSiena (19:50)
Yes, it's just we've all had

Lisa Mitchell (19:53)
okay, Heather. Where can people find you? Because obviously now they know how incredible you are both as a eligible bachelorette, and also as a professional speaker keynote. Where can they go to to connect with you?

Heather DeSiena (20:03)
Right? Yes.

So I have a pretty unique name, Heather DeSiena. If you Google that, all the stuff's gonna pop up because I don't think anyone else has that name. So that's pretty easy. I've got the website, that's more for keynote speaking. So hey, if you liked what you heard today and you have an event, a group that you wanna talk through some of this communication work, I'm your gal, for the dating prospects, Instagram is probably best.

Heather DeSiena. And for the professional, and I am very active on LinkedIn, find me there. I love connecting, by the way. I really do. Like, it's one of my life's joys to connect. So if you want to reach out, I know. That's what I mean. Like, it's so fun for me. I'm curious. And I want to know about you. So shoot me a DM on LinkedIn, on Instagram, whatever. I will respond. I love.

Lisa Mitchell (20:51)
Yeah. I think we got introduced and we're on a call like the next day or something. Yeah.

Heather DeSiena (21:05)
hearing what other people hear from conversations like this. yes, find me wherever makes the most sense for you. I would love to connect.

Lisa Mitchell (21:14)
send your eligible male friends. High quality, high quality eligible male friends to the ads. They'll be in the show notes. They'll be, yeah.

Heather DeSiena (21:16)
send your guys.

That's the key. They have to be

high quality. They have to be eligible. Okay. Let Lisa vet them.

Lisa Mitchell (21:25)
or send them to me first. I'll do a little forensic interview

coursework on them first and then then we'll we'll move the eligible ones onto the next round. But this is so fun. my God. my God. Okay. So everything's going to be in show notes and comments wherever you're watching this or listening to this year, you're going to get what you need. We'll send you to the right place. But in the meantime, if you are in that like, ⁓ I don't even really know what's happening. I'm not sure what I want next.

Heather DeSiena (21:33)
Okay, deal, This is great.

Lisa Mitchell (21:51)
I have made a super easy guide for you. It's the evaluate your marriage or it can be your relationship. It's a workbook. You can download it at my website, lisamitchell.biz/podcast slash podcast. You can get all the episodes there because I'm lucky that I know a lot of really amazing, brilliant, talented people and they all say yes to come on the podcast. So it's like my favorite way to get to chat with people I already love and trust and get to share with everybody listening and watching here. So Heather banger episode as prom.

Heather DeSiena (22:16)
So fun. So fun.

Lisa Mitchell (22:20)
I love it when we can deliver and it won't be the last, I'm pretty sure.

Heather DeSiena (22:24)
⁓ I'm already planning

our next conversation in my head. So I'll be ready. You better be ready to. Thanks again for having me.

Lisa Mitchell (22:29)
Love it.

absolutely. And divorce curious friends, you know, I'm going to end it like I always do and just encourage you to stay curious and keep your eye open for eligible bachelors that we can send to Heather. Love it. All right, you guys take care until next episode.

Heather DeSiena (22:42)
Stay curious. Ask the questions. Ask the questions.