When Your Husband Tells You He's Gay

Sometimes I get shocked. Sometimes I get surprised.  Sometimes I get both. This interview with Stephanie Sadural was one of those times. 

I enjoy intrigue and being surprised. Because of that, there are some interviews I do where I don't know the guest well and I don't know much at all about their story. You learn about them and their story at the same time I do, as they share themselves with us here on the podcast. Unfiltered and real. Just the way I like it!

There is so much to unpack in this episode as Stephanie shares the unexpected twist and turns in her marriage, how her husband revealing he was bisexual, and then gay, created an opportunity for them to love each other and their family in a deeper way, and what life looks like now as she's settled into the next chapter of life and love, doing things in her own way this time around. 

The most shocking part of this story to me wasn't the revelations or the unusual changes in their day-to-day family life, it was the immense amount of compassion, love and patience that Stephanie displays through it all. 

I'd like to think I could be so gracious but I fear I would not be. I can be a petty queen when my feelings are hurt or someone betrays me. 

I hope that this episode, and Stephanie's example, challenges you to love others better, love unconditionally even when it's really hard, and embrace all the things that you love about yourself as fully as you possibly can. 

Takeaways From The Episode: 

• Understanding identity shifts is crucial in relationships.
• Open communication is key during marital challenges.
• Compartmentalizing emotions can help in legal matters during divorce, it can be lengthy and draining. 
• Support systems play a vital role in navigating divorce.
• Every divorce story is unique and personal.
• Finding peace of mind is invaluable during transitions. Acceptance is crucial when facing an immovable situation.
• Emotional processing can be visualized as swimming through jello.
• Separating emotional issues from financial matters is essential during divorce.
• Open communication with an ex-partner can aid in emotional healing.
• Co-parenting can be successful with mutual respect and collaboration.
• New relationships can bring peace of mind when trust is established.
• Maintaining friendships with ex-partners can lead to healthier family dynamics.

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Transcript

Lisa Mitchell (00:09.688)
This is the Divorce Curious podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell. If you're here, your life and marriage might kinda suck right now, and I've been exactly where you are. At Divorce Curious, we're gonna say the quiet parts out loud. We're gonna sit in the anger, confusion, and disappointment that you're feeling, and talk about what it looks like to go through the before, during, and after.

of being Divorce Curious. I'm glad you're here.

Lisa Mitchell (00:46.37)
Welcome to the Divorce Curious Show. I'm your host, Lisa, but who cares about that? Because I am here with Steph. And I'm trying to think of the right words, right? Because I know that there is a story coming your way that you're gonna find interesting and probably a little unique and probably gonna leave you with some like holy heck moments.

if I had to guess. So Steph came on my radar. We have a mutual friend. We got to go watch a really cool balloon show together last year. So we've had some mini adventures, but I'm gonna cop that like you're kind of a new entity to me, Steph, on the life scale of things. So other than a mutual friend saying, you're gonna love her, she's amazing. And my God, does she have a story? Which I'm like, I'm in, So I'm joining as a curious listener today, I feel like.

but welcome to the show and thanks for spending some time here up in the Penthouse studio with me. Thank you, thank you. So I am Stephanie. I have been divorced for four years, married for 10, and I'm excited to share my story today. I would love to know, again, like I'm so curious about all the things with you because you have so

Such a calming presence and such a huge amount of self-assuredness. And again, by both testimony and evidence, I know you're a total badass in how you manage your life and how you raise your kids. So I'm very curious how your story unfolds because I know that there are some, shall we say plot twists, right? And like every divorce I feel like comes with its own unique, its own unique character arc.

and discovery path and very few of them are boring. But I also know that you have been tested and presented with some really interesting and unique circumstances. I think then maybe what people would expect or maybe necessarily have heard before. So I'm gonna kinda just open the space up for you to unpack, because I know you said you were married for 10 years and have been divorced for about four, but

Lisa Mitchell (03:01.58)
I'm curious to know because there's always a before and after, right? So can you kind of tell us what your marriage looked like, we'll say before, and then kind of that inflection point, we'll call it, and then how it evolved? So my husband and I actually met online before it was cool. Gosh, I want to say 2007. wow. So you were like online dating pioneers. time ago, yeah, back in the olden days. So we met online and...

We started dating, dated for a few months. He broke it off for reasons that were unclear and then came back six months later, which I've learned since that that's a red flag, my dear. But- Don't we get so wise as we journey forward? Truly, and I'm grateful for that wisdom. But came back six months later, said, I made a mistake. I'd really love if you could give me another chance. And so we began dating again and-

just to back it up a little bit, we both were pretty religious at the time. So I grew up in the church, he grew up in the church, his father was a pastor. And so that's definitely an element at play in all of the story. But part of that is it's really common to get married quickly. And so we, I wanna say within a year we were married and had bought a house. I mean, everything moved very fast. Yeah, you were doing life together. Yeah, I was ready to jump in both feet.

And we did. So we bought a house, we got married and within like the following year after we were married, pregnant with our first child. And then we were just rolling. mean, we're selling houses, buying houses, renovating, having kids. I mean, we were just full speed, but we were really close. We were best friends. We really enjoyed each other's company. We like to watch the same things on TV and do the same thing. I kind of looking back, I'm like,

Wow, we really connected. see some dots that I should have really paid attention to. But yeah, I mean, it's difficult really in those circumstances to have had to end the way that it did because we really got along well. We really enjoyed being together and there really wasn't much conflict.

Lisa Mitchell (05:15.382)
Very simpatico, very easy, very aligned. all the things that you're, you know, everybody talks about alignment and how important it is to be aligned with your partner and to track throughout your marriage and have common interest. And it sounds like check, check, check, right? Very much, yeah. And not just on those little things, but our values, what we want. We were both motivated people. We both wanted the same things out of life. So yeah, I mean, everything checked off. So. And then?

And then, dun dun dun. Because it sounds really great. It sounds like you should be hitting 15, headed towards 20 right now, based on that. One One would think. after about, well, I'm going to back it up a little bit. I'm going to be completely honest here. So we were married for about four years. And just after the birth of my second child, he came home after being at the gym and said to me, like, he was so upset. And he said, I have to tell you something.

I, and I'm, I'm so sorry. He was just bawling and he said, I am attracted to men as well. I think I'm bisexual. I had an incident with another guy at the gym. Oh, and I was just aghast. I could not believe, mean, I had no idea. All the things you would have expected to be disclosed that probably was not even on the list. Not on my radar. No. And so that was definitely a bomb that dropped. But I think

we'd been married for four years. We had two little kids and we were just, again, we were knee deep in it immediately. So with that disclosure, you know, we went to therapy and worked through some of that. And to me, I thought, well, if you're identifying as bi, you're attracted to women. We've chosen each other and if we won't want to, we're going to work through this and move forward. So that was 2014. About four years later,

he kind of grew distant in the period in between. Like he was a little bit more irritable, a little bit more distant, drinking a little bit more often. I mean, it was just kind of a slow downhill slide. And I want to say it was like December of 2018. We were out to dinner with some friends and I have to back up here. In those years in between, we would talk right here. We were very open. We would talk right here about

Lisa Mitchell (07:35.446)
Obama's dropped once, you said we're gonna try to fix this, but we don't ever talk about. No, we talked about it and we were very open with each other. And so we discussed it all the way along and we're out to dinner with another couple and people that we're really close to. And he told them just in conversations like, well, I'm gay. Like it was within the context of whatever we talking about, but I had never.

He had never said that to He never claimed that identity outright to you. no. Wow. And I was just, again, felt like I'd just been punched in the face. And you have to sit there at dinner with friends and act like. Gotta grin and eat these tortilla chips and pretend that, oh yeah, this is totally. Wow. And how did your friends react? They were surprised. Was that new information? were supportive. Okay. Yeah, yeah, it was new information for sure, but they were really lovely people. They were great. And so they just wanted to be supportive, but I think.

Did you get the phone call from the wife after dinner? Oh my God, girl, what do you mean? Oh yeah, she connected with me later and she was like, what is going on? What are you going to do? And I was like, I don't know. I'll check back in with you later. You're like pending. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just going to give the, you know, the close notes here, but basically after that, again, lot more discussion, you know, around what do you mean by that?

Where is this coming from? Because this is not what you told me. And it just became really clear that like that is how he identifies that is who he is. And by the spring, he was ready to come out to his parents. By the end of the summer, like I think I was just kind of walking around in a fog because I could not believe that this was happening. Did he ever explain to you like why he was relabeling himself or why it was important for him to be more vocal, like knowing kind of the impact it would have on you and

potentially your kids, was there a conversation or an agreement that, we're gonna vocalize or be more? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we did have a lot of discussion around that and we made a decision together to move to a church that was affirming of LGBTQ folks. We made some decisions there because immediately I was more concerned about my kids and what they would experience through this than whatever it was that he was going to do. I was never really clear aside from

Lisa Mitchell (10:00.896)
why there was a disclosure that, okay, now I think I'm gay. I think it was just a journey for him becoming more and more honest with himself. I think a lot of people, it's not uncommon for people in this position to identify as bisexual first and then ease into the reality of, no, I'm gay or I'm lesbian. So that was definitely a journey, but I'm on the other side of it, just like trying to hold space for

all of this stuff that's going on and I'm just That's what I'm thinking of like, A, know, kudos to you for having the grace to be supportive of the changing narrative. Cause I'm sure that was like kind of put you in a space of what about me or like, did I probably, and I don't want to speak for you, but I putting myself in that situation, would feel a little like you've been given a lot of new responsibility, but you've also been kind of like disregarded because you didn't ask for your paradigm to shift or for

you to be in a newly defined partnership. Yet you were supportive of that. So holy crap, talk about grace. Like, that would be like, wait, do I get to vote here? you just changed your contract terms and I didn't subscribe. Yeah. Like what's going on? Right. Yeah. And I went, why? mean, it's the whole thing was very messy, but I just, I don't know. Like something within me was really determined that like whatever I do from here on out,

I want to be proud of how I handled myself. I want to be proud of who I am through this process. And I want my children to be proud of how I handled it and to look back and not have any moment where they thought where we're fighting in front of them or where they are traumatized by as little as possible by the experience. So additional trauma on top of the initial. Yeah. Again, just a testament to me of like a mother's

sacrifice and love for their kids and what that will allow you to endure or navigate far more gracefully than you probably felt on the inside. Probably not how you would have wanted to handle it had you just had complete no accountability for what you did next, right? yeah, I would have handled it very differently probably. Carrie Underwood song in the making. So thereafter, we kind of spent the summer just doing the things we normally do, going on vacation.

Lisa Mitchell (12:27.008)
acting like everything was normal. And then August comes and the school starts back up. And one day he comes home and tells me he bought a house. Excuse me, what? Right. Right. Whoa, wait. Yeah. Okay. He just said, I bought a house. It's down in this area of town and I'm going to start moving my things into it. I was like, okay.

So apparently he had borrowed from his 401k and decided to buy this house with that. I was like, okay. That's like a marital asset at that point, Home Fry. doesn't matter where that money came from. Right, right. So that's whatever. yeah, so he bought this house. I'm shell shocked and I'm starting to get really angry because I'm just like, this was a partnership. We were gonna talk about everything, every step of the way, which is what we have been doing. And now you're making decisions about.

what's going to happen next without me. I think a lot of people go through this too and divorce where you've decided that's it, you're gonna split, that's the end and then you reconsider, you might move, know, so he moves back in actually after a month or so, because I think we just didn't know what to do. We were not clear on like, no, there's really no path forward here, you know? And then some of the downhill slope I was talking about earlier just got worse and worse. And so,

about January of 2020, a week after our anniversary actually, I told him like, I want a divorce, I want this, we need to be done. And so end of January, and then COVID hits. then we spent several months in the same house, and he's sleeping in another room. And that was a whole other level of stress to be navigating COVID and also be like, we're separated, but we both live here. living in a house with my...

But oddly on another level, was because things were so uncertain and crazy during that time, was oddly like comforting for us all to be under the same roof regardless because it's familiar. You know, you're well intentioned when it comes to the outcome for the kids and you still have a baseline level of caring and loving each other. So you want the best outcome. So, okay. So post COVID.

Lisa Mitchell (14:47.736)
Divorce, you file, he file, you jointly file. filed. He moved out again in May, sold that other house and bought one that was closer to where we lived for the kids' benefit. yeah, so he moves into that new house in May. And then by November, I went ahead and filed. But in the interim, I had started to save money and hired an attorney. I asked some of my friends who I knew had been through divorce, who did you use? Did you tell me about your experience with?

the attorney, what did they do that you liked, what did they do that you didn't like? And then I ended up, I hired someone that I was very happy to work with. She was fantastic. Good. You don't realize how important your choice of attorney is. And even if you're doing a collaborative divorce or whatever nice term you want to call it, the fact remains you never divorced the same person you marry. You just cannot be surprised enough by how different they'll behave sometimes when it comes to legal paperwork and...

the death grasp of grabbing what they think they're entitled to on the way out the door. Yeah, no, I know that's that's very common in my situation. I probably changed during that more than before he did because it's almost like a garage door closed when he moved out for the final time. I was like, okay.

You're like, I'm done supporting you and propping you up and giving you unconditional everything and sacrificing myself for your, for your benefit. Yeah. Cause I'm not, I'm not getting any emotional support in this from him. I'm obviously, and I'm not going to like carry me through this. I'm carrying you emotionally and that honestly, looking back, that was pretty standard in our marriage. Like I'm carrying you emotionally, but like, I don't have a soft place to fall.

Again, hindsight's 20-20, you know, isn't it? Isn't it so clear in the rear view when you're like, now I see exactly what that dynamic was. Yeah, you don't, sometimes you're not aware that your needs aren't being met because you're out of touch with your own needs. We make the sacrifices we make are just sometimes they can be so unhealthy. So at that point I was just of the mind that like, I'm going to be kind to you and we can grieve this together, but I'm also like, there's the business side. I'm going to protect myself. Yeah.

Lisa Mitchell (16:56.622)
there's a business side to a marriage. So I had to compartmentalize those two things. And I think that is one of the best, and ordinarily that's not a healthy thing to do all the time, but I think in this space, it's very healthy because you've got to separate your emotions from the business side of deconstructing your marriage. Yeah. So let's talk about that for a minute, because I think so many people listening to this right now, maybe

have theories about what that part might look like or are thinking they need to behave a certain way or they have to extend a certain amount of grace or there will be more collaboration in theory than maybe they're finding out is happening in actuality. How do you structure that compartmentalization or what were some of the primary differences in how you operated or how you thought from the business side versus the relational side? I think it's really difficult, especially when you are going through a divorce that you didn't necessarily want.

to remove the emotion from the things that you have to do, the practical stuff that you have to address. It's hard to untangle that, but it's so important that you do. I think that what informed my approach was just, how would I advise a friend to handle this? And then I started to approach it the way that I approach things at work.

This is how things go evidence-based. Yeah. And logical. I'm going to draw all this out and we're going to discuss it and we'll negotiate it and get into paper and go from there for me personally. And this may not be true for everyone, but when I am anxious, I find that putting that energy toward any practical thing I can do is, I mean, that just saves my bacon until I can get to a point where I feel safe and then process the emotions.

So that's how I operate. I don't know that that's necessarily healthy, but it's what works for me. And so that is what I did through that. I just thought, what do I need to do next? How do I need to approach this? How can I be fair when it comes to the financials picture, but fair to me as well? I think it's so hard and I won't speak for all women, but I'll speak for myself. It's hard sometimes to reconcile when you work from a place of being.

Lisa Mitchell (19:07.51)
a default mode of sacrificial or a default mode of collaborative or a default mode of I'll just give whatever's necessary to keep things moving no matter how depleted I am to A, realize that's not your job anymore. The decisions that are made means that you're off the clock. You don't have to operate that way with that person anymore. And getting over like the guilt of how it can feel so selfish to prioritize yourself or look out for your own best interest or not.

worry about the best interest of your partner for the first time in so long. Like it really, to me, I know that I felt terribly selfish, even though it was like exactly right and logical and still very much not equitable. It still felt like, gosh, this doesn't feel good. But what's fair or necessary, or it's not even a matter of entitlement. It's just like, this is just what's necessary. And to your point, logical, this is just the formula is a formula. The math is the math. It's not me being.

entitled or selfish or what else. People made these rules for a reason. Right. And women, think, are uniquely conditioned in our culture to over give. And I think we all know that at our core. it's my gosh, in times of crisis, we definitely overextend. And so it's really hard to pull back and feel like it always feels selfish, I think, to put yourself first if you're a woman. I mean, that's unfortunately just the way that we're socialized. But

It particularly does when you're in a situation where emotions are high, things are going wrong and you can't fix it. And to then put yourself first in the middle of that seems like a betrayal on some level. But I mean, it's obviously the best thing that you can do. And I think it's so often, and I felt myself in this friction, right? I actually at one point adopted the motto, like, peace of mind is priceless.

This was as I was signing things away that I really should have kept her was entitled to. And I think it's so hard to have the discipline and have the patience to let the process work and let the attorney follow the guidance of the people that are not emotional stakeholders in the situation because people start chirping. The longer it takes, people start chirping in your ear. They start chirping in the other party's ears. And all of a sudden everybody's feeling like,

Lisa Mitchell (21:27.758)
what felt collaborative or easy to decide on all of a sudden comes, everything's back up for negotiation again, right? And you get this fatigue, think, especially if it's, you just wanna get on to taking care of your kids and you wanna get on to find a new normal. And it's such a game of, I think people underestimate how much endurance it takes to go through the process of separating lives. On TV, it's easy, you serve papers, you go to a court and it's done, right? And varying degrees of.

drama, depending on the show on the genre, right? How much they need to make that storyline prevalent. But I feel like we have a vast oversimplification of the mental energy and the emotional energy that it will take in the time. just, nothing moves fast. It just doesn't. And it can be so easy to be like, you know what, screw it. I don't even care anymore. I just want it to be done. Just sign the damn papers. Let's schedule the hearing. Let's be done with this. Because the beauty and the curse of being capable, competent women,

is we'll know we'll be fine. We'll figure it out. Our kids are gonna eat. We're gonna have our basics met. We're gonna figure out a way to make up whatever we're losing out of the sake of having it done. And we will, but why should we have to? Right. Exactly. Yeah. And it does get lost in that feeling. I it is a marathon for some. The worst. And yeah. Like you're running on broken glass every day. Yeah. Well, and you're starting out with fumes too. Yeah. Most often, like you're emotionally depleted by the time you get there.

So yeah, it is never simple and it is never just, okay, well, we'll just sign the papers and it's done. Yeah, I wish it was that easy and simple. And sometimes it is by the time you get to sign the papers, you're actually pretty neutral about things because you've gone through the five stages of death and dying and the process of thinking about it or going through it or waiting for things to be settled. We had our hearing, we got our divorce and went out for Mexican, right? Like it was by the time we actually got to the...

courthouse paperwork side of things. were like, all right. That's amazing. It's sad that it takes that long that you can go through the entire grief process. Yeah. Yeah. Right. They can. And fairly neutral by the time the paperwork gets high. again, everybody's journey is different and not every relationship allows for that type of neutrality to set in. We didn't have any major grievances. There wasn't abuse. There wasn't infidelity. There wasn't

Lisa Mitchell (23:49.484)
Right? So I think if you had a highly charged incident or discovery or complex set of circumstances like you did, it would be a lot harder to sign paperwork and go to Mexican. Yeah, I think often that's the case. It was not for me terribly difficult because, you know, by that point it was just like, well, I can't change. Like this is the immovable object. There's no way around it. And so I just have to accept it. And this person isn't a bad person.

He's not a terrible person. He's lovely. But even though I didn't want to be divorced and I didn't want to lose the relationship that I had, which looking back, wasn't meeting my needs as it out, but it felt good to just close it out and be done rather than hanging around and feeling like I was swimming through jello every day. It was like, well, I don't, I don't know what's going to happen next. through jello. That's like such a great visual of what pieces of

of the process feel like. That's fantastic. My jello is green by the way. The picture, I'm a very visual processor and I'm like, I'm in great jello. That's interesting. I hate my jello. Which would make sense of why it would be so unpleasant to have to swim in it. yeah. So tell me a little bit about the after, the new normal. The new normal has been great. One point that I did want to make that I think this is my advice I give to everybody who is approaching this before I move on to the after.

just practically when you hire an attorney, you have to have to keep in mind that they are there to serve the business side of the marriage. They're professional. You cannot use them as therapy. You cannot call them up and go like the best thing you can do is chart out what you want the outcome to be financially before you even have that first intake call.

shard all of that out because it can get so expensive so quickly. So my God, yes. And the meters run in every, I think six minute billing now is what most attorneys are on. Every six minutes is an incremental billing. It's not even every quarter hour anymore. Wow. minutes you get charged for any six minutes and that's answering an email that's texting, that's a phone call. The meter is always running. That is such an important point. And so I think it's really, again, in that separation of emotion from

Lisa Mitchell (26:12.418)
breaking the financial implications of it down. You have to keep those separate because it will get expensive for you if you are calling your attorney and going, yes, what she did today. yeah, they will. Yes, they will. They'll create as much space as you want to pay them to create for you. And that's not a knock on attorneys. That's just the business model. So at the same time, you hire an attorney, hire a therapist if you haven't already. So you can just push those two things apart.

talk to your therapist about what he did this week and talk to your attorney about- Because they have a fixed rate. Exactly. You know how much time you have to unload on your therapist. Right, right. And they'll be a little bit more helpful in that department. And they don't charge $400 plus dollars an hour for the most part. Right, not. So the after has been, initially the after was difficult because that's when it was really, the anger over everything was really hitting me. And I just thought, how has my life come to this?

How did I get in this situation in the first place? And I was so mad because I just thought, how could you pull me into the closet with you? I had no idea. And then you gaslight yourself to be like, well, was any of the good stuff even real? Or was it just a storyline? Was I just an alibi? Was I just, I made him more acceptable in public. Right. And that's exactly it. felt like I was then, I had the space when it was all done to look back and go.

Was any of this real? What was, you know, then I was able to sort through the emotion. Like I just kind of held that and thought I will deal with that. first. Function first. Feelings later. Yeah. And then I got into the feelings and I was just so pissed. Did he ever, like, were you able to have that conversation with him and get some clarity around that to the point that you feel it's real? Like, or that you feel like you got the truth? Yeah. You know, one of the things that I have to say for him that I don't think everyone would do is like,

I was so mad and I would tell him about it. I would talk to him about it. I'd go and sit with him and I would just kind of unload. And he was there for it. He, for the most part, like he would listen and he would process. And it doesn't mean that we didn't get, you know, arguments occasionally, but like, I really feel grateful that I had that. Because most of the time once, you know, whether it's a divorce or a breakup, like you don't have the luxury of telling that person, this is exactly what I think.

Lisa Mitchell (28:34.572)
This is exactly how you made me feel. wondering to create worst case scenarios in your mind all the time. Right. I was really grateful to be able to continue to have those conversations with him and just ask all the questions like WTF, why any this? Walk this back for me. How did this marriage happen? What was the point of any the kids come from? What are we doing? How did we get here? Yeah. So, you know, I really had the luxury of processing that with him and I was angry for quite a while, but

Through being able to come down off of the anger and look around and go, my life is really pretty good. I have these wonderful kids. I have plenty. I have abundance. I have a great job. Everything else in my life seems to be going really well. I was able to kind of shift the focus off of what I didn't get.

or not financially, but like what I didn't get in life, like what I wanted to have happen. would feel like you'd been a little conned, I feel like, or like how different could it have been if there wasn't this other thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I threw every bit of that at him. And good for him for like taking it and owning it. Right. I don't think most people would be able to do that. so often it's defensiveness or just you don't ever even get the opportunity to confront those feelings. Backing that up a little bit, I think what was helpful for both of us to be able to be

those things to each other is that throughout our marriage, we were always big proponents of going to therapy. I would go to therapy for certain things. And then he had stuff that he was working through, but we had done marriage counseling before we'd gotten married, which is, I know, pretty common, especially in the church. And we just continued to see that counselor every time we got to a point in our marriage where we were at an impasse or couldn't work through something, we would schedule an appointment and go talk with her. So we were, I feel like that all of that time spent in therapy.

really helped both of us to grow to be the kind of people who could handle this the way that we have. So I have to give him all the credit that he really was there for me in a way that most people I think would not be at that point. He wasn't washing his hands of this or me. So that allowed me the space to work that out and then refocus on, well, how do we make this the absolute best

Lisa Mitchell (30:54.51)
situation for our kids. Like this is unfortunate. This isn't what we wanted to have happen. But after all of that, and again, I kept all of this away from their ears and eyes. So they weren't really aware of what we were discussing or like how angry I was with him and all that. They didn't see that. I worked through that myself. But on the other side of that, we had started to like go to dinner with the kids and take them to the park together or, do

all these other things to the point that we went ahead that next summer and we vacationed together with the kids. We did that too. you? Oh, it's such a gift. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool, Lisa. We shared a lot of stuff just because neither one of us wanted to miss anything. And so by default, our rules of engagement were like, and again, it got harder when she got older and started managing that relationship on her own without, I wasn't running interference or softening things, right? So

But when she was like, she was three when we separated. And so there was a lot of firsts to be done. So, I mean, we got divorced. He came on vacation with me and my family and because it was my daughter's first time at the beach and neither one of us wanted to miss it and would spend the night on Christmas Eve to be there. You know, it's crazy what you can have the capacity to do for the benefit of your kids. So kudos to you for both of you being able to continue that.

collaborative and child-centered way of managing your relationships and your dynamics, because it can be real easy and look really attractive to not do that. Yeah, well, and to you too. Yeah, because it is not easy until you start to get into a flow of doing that. And it's those first few times that are hard. And you have to just keep focusing on like, well, this is my kids are so happy that we're all together. My kids are so grateful that we're

spending all this time together. And I often tell my kids now, like when they might complain about, their big complaint is, I don't like having to go to two houses. understood. The bag packing and the shuttling back and forth and the, I my dad's this weekend or I met my mom's this weekend. Yeah, it's a lot for kids. I mean, that bag packing BS is no joke. And I don't want to minimize that, but like out of all of this, that's been their biggest issue. And we live less than a mile apart. So they're not even,

Lisa Mitchell (33:15.182)
I know. But I told them, I was like, listen, just listen, when you're older and you talk to your friends whose parents are divorced, you're going to realize like, you're not getting shipped on an airplane to leave your friends for the whole summer, right? Right. You're going to realize like how amazing this was while you were growing up because it's not typical. Well, I did a podcast episode with my daughter, which was really scary and awesome. And mean, it's great because you know, she's grown up like she's going to be 20 and

She's grown and grew up her whole life as a child of divorce. And it was the first time, I mean, you don't normally sit down and structure questions for get your kid's point of view on something you were heavily involved in creating, right? So it was terrifying, but it was so good. And I learned so much, but that was one of the comments she made when I asked a question about, did it like, when did you realize like you were from a divorced family or like, your friend, do you ever have judgment from your friends or whatever? And, you know, she made the comment of, well,

you guys were both at everything. A lot of people didn't even realize or didn't even really think about it because you got along well enough that you both made the effort to be at things. So it just wasn't like, wasn't an issue. You're both just there. And that's, that's, and she realizes how like, how hard that is. Well, and how hard that can be.

still like 20, oh my God, it's been 15 years and we're still spending the weekend together at volleyball tournaments. Oh my goodness. It's a lot like it. Mamas are no joke. Like the things we will enter his credit to, right? Like, cause I know he wasn't any more thrilled about the amount of time than I was. Sure. have there been new players enter the Villa? have you had?

The hot new bombshells enter the villa, right? Isn't that what the like temptation Island or whatever. Like have you had to navigate having new people in your lives in the current versions of yourselves and how has that worked? Yes. So he is remarried. I think they just celebrated their two year anniversary. That has gone really well. I have been single ever since I've dated a little bit and that has been.

Lisa Mitchell (35:21.934)
an interesting journey we can do a whole other podcast on that. likewise. a fellow sister that was in the trenches for a long time. Condolences. My goodness, thank you. I haven't introduced anyone to my children, so that hasn't been a factor on my end yet, but Matt's husband, he was also married to a woman and he was going through coming out at about the same time, I guess, the timeline. They actually met because his husband now,

had run a ministry for people who were clear about their sexuality, but were trying to live, I'm using air quotes guys, biblically, they were trying to live as a straight person knowing fully their sexuality was not. That's a whole nother episode. It is, I've got so many episodes, Lisa. Oh my God, we're doing a series. Just get comfy, you're not leaving the couch for a while. So they actually met through that. then, but when I, I can't even remember the first time I met him or talked to him because

He is such a kind, loving individual that there was never a moment where I looked at that guy and was like, I don't know about him or I have concerns about him being around my children. I think most parents feel that way or look sideways. That biggest nightmare, honestly. Like my biggest fear was at the time, who else is gonna be around my daughter? Right, because I knew he would not stay single for long. knew he would get partnered.

very quickly, and he did. And to my relief, she is a freaking saint and I adore her and it has been to not have to worry about who your kids are around when they're not with you, I think is like the greatest gift you can give any single mom who's co-parenting with someone that who knows, who knows how it can go, but it sounds like your fears or your anxiety, it's just never great to have somebody else be a parental figure for your kids, I think.

initially it always just feels like a loss of some sort until there's enough evidence to show that it's just more love, more parental support, more safe space, more people invested in the wellbeing of your children. Exactly. you can kind of breathe out a little bit, but I think until you know that, no matter how great you think the person is, you're kind of like, out.

Lisa Mitchell (37:40.908)
Stay away, don't touch my kids. Get away from my kids. Those are my kids. You know, least I did. I'll admit it. I was like, are you? Get away from my kid. Who's this new family? Get out. I honestly, no, I did. I knew that Matt wouldn't stay single for very long. yeah, no. And I was worried about like, okay, who is he gonna end up with? I don't even know. That's terrifying, but he chose, his husband now is exactly who I would choose to be.

the step-parent to be another presence in your kids life. That's what, mean, wow. You cannot underscore the peace of mind that that provides when you can trust. And that's been good. And my kids, they like him. He also has three children. at their home- Oh my goodness, it's a Brady Bunch. It's a modern Brady Bunch. is the Brady Bunch. So at their home, they have six kids on their days, which God bless and God speed, baby. am not here for any of that. No. And now that I say that, I'm sure that

plants are gonna align, I'm gonna end up dating someone with four kids. I you just first myself. But yeah, that part has been really pretty smooth. That's been good. And I don't know what's next on the horizon for me, but I'm keeping realistic expectations after dating a little bit and, you know, not really focusing so much on dating anymore. You know, I'm really more focused on pursuing the things that make me happy and.

spending my time and energy on the people that I love, traveling more. Peace of mind is priceless. It's so funny, I forget how long, sometimes I just forget how long because I'm just so content and so happy and I love running my own schedule and I have so many great people in my life. Like I don't feel like I'm missing anything, but you know, like they're getting ready to celebrate. Did they just celebrate? I can't remember. Maybe it was last year. Like a 10 year anniversary of being married for 10 years plus however long they were together before. And I was just like,

What an odd set of like, we both came out of things at the same time and how different the paths have been and it appears everyone is happy. I always hope that's the case because my daughter's life is easier when everyone is happy and healthy around her. So I will always hope for that outcome. But it's also so interesting what the path does look like for each of us separately.

Lisa Mitchell (40:02.67)
the timelines and things like that and people are like, gosh, you know, you've been, how long have you been divorced? And I'm like, it's 15 years this year, which it doesn't seem like 15 years, but yeah, so I know that doesn't happen. Maybe I've passed the point of like partnership. I don't believe that to be true, but I'm like, it's not something where I'm like, it's like, yeah, if a great, healthy, safe, loving partner showed up, I wouldn't send them packing, but it's not something I'm hunting for because

Peace of mind is priceless, right? I got a lot of peace right now and it feels like you have a lot of peace and it feels like it's growing. Distance helps peace grow, I feel like, in the right circumstances. What do you hope for yourself when your kids are grown, they're married and your grandma on the porch? What do you hope, having endured the set of circumstances in this particular version of a relationship, what do you hope that's added to your life or allowed you to experience? First of all, I think that

This experience has changed me for the better. It has allowed me to expand my ability to love the people in my life well. And it's allowed me to step outside of myself a little bit more. I think that we all, like whether or not there's different degrees of like self-focus, I'm sure, but like we are all more self-focused than we realize until we are in this position going through divorce. And then when you have to make these hard decisions and

maybe lose out in certain ways, then you have to deal with that. And like, there are so many moments where as a parent, you get a glimpse into that. You have to give up some of that self-focus to be focused on your child, but then it's just accelerated when you are going through a divorce. So I like the person that I am now much better than the person that I was when I got married or when I was still in my marriage. What I hope for myself, I guess, is I'm still trying to cast a vision for my future, you know, and just,

enjoying my peace along the way. But I do hope that even after the kids are grown and out, I honestly hope that I still am able to maintain the relationship that Matt and I have. Like the friendship that we have now is really valuable to me. And I have a friendship with his husband too. And it's weird for those words to come out of my mouth. Right, right. But that's where we're at. There are times where if I've been out on a bad date,

Lisa Mitchell (42:28.538)
And I'm just like, my gosh, I'll stop by and be like, can I come over and have a drink with you guys? And they're like, yes, come on over. So I'm so proud of the friendship that we've been able to form. And I hope that we can enjoy that lifelong. I love that. I mean, I think it's just such a beautiful piece of evidence towards what's possible with grace, but grace via strong boundaries and honoring yourself and loving and appreciating yourself and

I feel like for somebody, if somebody was just looking at like show notes or like the bullet points of what was disclosed here and then to hear that's where you end up, those are your dudes you can call and debrief a bad date with. Like to be able to go from one end of your story to the other, I don't think that that's like, if I was writing a choose your adventure book, that would have been an ending. You know, I wouldn't have thought it feasible, but I think again, that's just a testament to like your openheartedness and your willingness to love people and

whatever version of truth that they are presenting you with. And that is so damn hard because we're so judgmental by nature. And especially if we've been wronged, which no greater wrong, honestly, in my opinion, than being deceitful in a marriage like that. so just total respect and admiration for you and your courageousness and your grace and willingness to share a story that I'm sure there's been feelings of judgment and there's like,

What the hell? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I have those about parts of my story where I'm like, well, I don't want to say that out loud because that doesn't make me look pretty dumb about that. You know, like I think that there's that, but I think the more we hear each other's stories and the more, you know, the people listening to this, whenever it reaches them, hopefully it gives them a little bit of courage from your story that they can borrow to do what they need to do in their own. And whether that's being courageous enough to being open to loving someone in a new way, which is

real hard when we've already decided that's not something we wanna do. But you're like, my God, no, I have to love this person and I really don't want to. Fine, we'll do life together. Sometimes it just feels like that, right? But I think you're giving people an example of courage and courageous love. And who would have ever expected the ending? Who would have expected any of it, first of all, but let alone the grace-filled, open-hearted, loving ending.

Lisa Mitchell (44:53.228)
that you're able to offer to everyone, to yourself, to your kids, to your ex-husband and their partner. it could look so much different. It could look so much different if you operated from a different space. I really appreciate that. Thank you, Lisa. I agree. think that it's always a choice. Like even when it feels like you don't have a choice, you have choices. You always have choices. And so, yeah, that is a choice too, to choose to forge ahead and take what you've been given and make the best out of.

what remains and then you're able to add to it. So on the other side of a big pile of suck, is a giant pile of suck when you're in it. But there is the other side. There is the other side. If you just give yourself the space and grace, there is always the other side and it could look drastically different than you ever think possible when you're in the middle of the suck. And I think you and I are both living testaments to how things can look a little better than you think maybe they ever could when you're in it. So I can't think of any

better way to wrap this up. So thank you, Steph, for coming on and putting it all out there and sharing your story and being such a beautiful piece of evidence of the power of grace and that you don't have to sacrifice yourself for other people's benefits to get there. You can get what you need and also be able to have those relationships on the other side. And for everybody listening, I mean, I'm sure you had jaw drop moments like I did, because I'm sitting across from Steph and I'm like, holy.

Like, what? What did you just say? How did you get from here to there? So it's not only a great story, but I hope you see it for what it is, as a beautiful piece of evidence. And if you know somebody who this is a unique circumstance, but it's not the only circumstance of it, or really anybody who's kind of just in that pile of suck phase of decision making or the process or the business side of finding their life either together or independently.

There's no easy path and there's no lack of work that has to be done to do that. So I hope that you will share this episode with them. Just send it in a link wherever they like to listen to episodes. They'll find it Spotify, iTunes, directly on YouTube or the website, whatever. Just link it up, download it, share it with them. We can all use a little bit more evidence. A little bit of evidence of how, no matter what, how squirrely the circumstances are, how unexpectedly you find yourself in something you never even would have.

Lisa Mitchell (47:16.408)
Put in a piece of fiction you write that there is courage and there is a path forward to a better ending. So Steph, thanks for being here. Thank you so much for having me. This has been awesome. Thanks for sharing your story and friends until the next episode, stay curious.