Does Your Marriage Support Your Mental Health?

In this episode, I have a candid and vulnerable conversation with Maggie McGrann LMHC-A, NCC  where we discuss the intrinsic link between mental health and relationships, particularly focusing on the challenges women face in maintaining their mental well-being within partnerships.

We get real about the true, and often unspoken,  impact of divorce on both parents and children, emphasizing the importance of authenticity, self-value, and the courage to make difficult decisions for the sake of personal happiness. 

Having both gone through the painful circumstances of divorce and facing the judgement of those close to us, we take a deep dive into societal expectations surrounding marriage and divorce. As mothers, we both experienced losing some of the people we thought would be most supportive of us, and were surprised to find people we wouldn't have expected to show up for us in big ways do just that, emphasizing how important it is to find the right type of support when navigating divorce and co-parenting.   

As a mental health professional, Maggie shares invaluable and actionable ways to help you focusing on what you can control, shares the value of meditation for mental clarity, and highlights the opportunity to model resilience for children during challenging times. 

Key Takeaways: 

• Prioritizing your mental health is a form of love for your children.
• Women often neglect their mental health in partnerships.
• Authenticity in relationships is crucial for well-being.
• Cultural messages can hinder personal growth and self-value.
• Divorce can actually lead to healthier family dynamics for the children.
• Support systems are vital during transitions like divorce.
• You have the right to prioritize your own happiness.
• Radical acceptance is key to moving forward after divorce.
• Divorce doesn't have to be a negative experience. 
• If you're waiting for your partner to acknowledge your feelings, you'll never be okay.
• Accepting someone's capacity to meet your needs is crucial for your mental health.
• Redirect your energy towards what you can control in your life.
• Understanding the divorce process can alleviate fear and anxiety.
• Detaching from emotional triggers can help maintain your peace.
• Building a support network of those who understand your situation is vital.
• Tools like meditation can help you reconnect with your inner voice and intuition.
• Modeling emotional intelligence for your children is essential.

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Transcript

LISA MITCHELL (00:01.966)
Okay, a few things are gonna try your mental health like being in an unhappy relationship. And you know, here at Divorce Curious, we are neither encouraging nor discouraging divorce. We're just helping you figure out what is your reality and what is the next best step for you. And today I'm really excited because I think there's a few things as important for women in particular to pay attention to and focus on.

than their mental health. And I think so many women kind of feel like their mental health is something that is to be considered or cared for or managed or worried about outside of their marriage or their relationship. But it really is so intrinsically linked to the key relationships in your life, especially your marriage or your romantic relationship with your partner. And mental health is, or at least it should be,

your number one first priority because if you can't care for yourself well and you're not prioritizing your own well-being, all of your other relationships are going to suffer, whether it's with your partner or with your children, your work. So today's focus really is how does mental health play into the outcomes and the happiness in your relationships. And I am so excited today to have one of my very, very favorite people. And I can tell you that

This woman on the podcast with me today is really one of the sole reasons that my mental health is still intact and still exists and has been instrumental in helping me specifically in the capacity as a parent and navigating some of the challenges that come with raising a teenager and a young adult. And now today, Maggie McGran, thank you so much for being here. She's going to get to share her brilliance and her perspective.

with you all. So you're welcome. You're gonna thank me at the end of this. So I'm just gonna say you are welcome in advance because this I think is gonna be one of the most powerful podcasts you will ever listen to when it comes to centering your mental health and really figuring out the role that mental health plays and not only the healthiness of your relationship, but kind of your entire world. So Maggie.

LISA MITCHELL (02:21.464)
Thank you so much for being here. I'm gonna turn it over to you and let you tell people a little bit of your story here. Okay, well thank you. That was such a nice introduction. Like I said, Lisa said, my name's Maggie McGran and I am a mental health therapist currently in private practice helping people with mainly anxiety disorders, severe anxiety disorders, but I've done a lot of work as well with women. I myself am divorced for five years and co-parenting two young girls.

And I have a background working with children in schools as a school counselor and seeing a lot of kids through their own parents divorcing and kind of managing that situation, step parents, blended families, lots and lots of different scenarios with young people and then as well as with their parents. So I'm really passionate about this area and feel like talking especially to women about how to manage life.

whether they're in a marriage or they have decided to leave a marriage or a partnership and raising children and the impact of how you approach and address and respond to those challenges on yourself and then on your children is something that is really important. And we really need to talk about when we're talking about making changes or moving forward in a way that's positive for everybody. Yeah, I love that you bring the perspective that you are so heavily, heavily experienced and

the child-centric approach. And I know like for myself as a mother who got divorced when my daughter was really young and how much I struggled with the prospect of raising a child in a quote unquote broken home, which now I hate that term because I think having a home, a separate home that is loving and stable and healthy is much better than

having a home where both people are living together and the marriage is intact, but it is absolutely toxic and unhealthy and potentially dangerous. I would love just, we're gonna get into that a little bit deeper later, but I would love to just kind of get your initial take of when someone comes to you and they're kind of struggling with this and it's like, well, just the burden of breaking up the home is so heavy on somebody.

LISA MITCHELL (04:42.894)
What would be some words of wisdom or some approaches or questions that you can offer to people? Yeah, sure. I think that one of the most important things to ask yourself is if you really are able to be your authentic self within your partnership, your marriage, your sometimes live in partnership, and if that means you're also allowed to change and grow within that. And your needs can change and grow.

And if that's the case, then there's a lot more room for the couple to work together in a way that's healthy and embrace those changes. If you really feel as though your needs, your growth, and your authentic self is something that you have to kind of keep to yourself or monitor really how much of that you're expressing, there's going to be consequences for your mental and emotional health. There's just really not a way around that. And so that's the fundamental question that I would say.

is there to ask? Of course, there are many other questions that can come after that, but that's always the first thing that I think it's really important to consider. Can I be my authentic self? Can I continue to grow and change? Can I show up in this partnership in a way that is taking up space, the amount of space it needs to, or am I kind of like limited to this is what I'm allowed to express and what is expected of me. And beyond that, I'm going to have to kind of shrink.

That's really detrimental to our well-being. So that's kind of the key question. Yeah, I love that. think there is this tremendous, and I obviously won't speak for every woman who's contemplated this or been in that spot of thinking of the, can I make this work? But I think in my own experience, that was already the sacrifice I was making of...

Okay, so for me to keep my family intact, I will then show up as something other than who I really am or I will behave in a way that keeps peace and keeps things looking pretty on the outside, even though I'm feeling so completely torn up and torn down on the inside. And I think it just takes so much courage, I think, to

LISA MITCHELL (07:04.586)
and great support from professionals like yourself to really just give permission to even think about that. That's like such a, that was really like one of the hardest things for me is just managing the shame of like, I am a type A overachiever. I hate to fail. Like I think I'm capable of figuring out almost anything. And my squirrely little ADHD brain thinks, well, I can learn every, I can learn how to do anything. So why can't I learn how to be

the wifi need to be or how, why can't I learn to have my household look and feel and run the way I need my household to look and feel and run. So it's one of those things where I think a lot of people will literally bottom themselves out just in good faith effort of if I just try a little bit harder or if I just change a little bit more, or if I just get a little bit quieter or if I, and then you end up just in this place where

You don't even like, I didn't even recognize myself anymore. And I think that's like such a hard space because then I then, you know, coming back to the kid's view, it's like, well, who, who is my child getting to know? Like who's, who is their mom at this point? Like does she even, will my daughter even know who I am? Well, I remember who I am by the time she's old enough to want to get to know me. Yeah. I think that that is something that we really.

can work on reframing. We're given a lot of messages, right? That if you get married and you have children, that the only and most important and best outcome for them would be staying together, keeping a family together. And in reality, there's a lot of ways for a family to be happy and healthy. And it is very possible in a lot of different situations that the family being happy and healthy means that the parents need to not be together anymore.

And a lot of times you might have one parent that is kind of in that, am I gonna be courageous and ask for something different or make a decision? And the other parent might not initially want that, but it could end up being something that makes them happier and healthier as well, by being able to pursue a partnership that also works better for them. my gosh, sorry. Pause. So I think that...

LISA MITCHELL (09:27.5)
really kind of taking those cultural messages or even those kind of family value messages that we have heard and looking at it as how can I be the person that I want to be for my children? How can I raise my children so that they know me? And how can I model for them self love? You know, our kids learn not so much from what we say as everyone, you always hear that, but they learn from us from what we are showing them.

And so if you, especially as you say with a daughter, if you are having a mother that shrinks herself and becomes invisible in her own life in order to make everything okay for everyone else, then you know, your children are seeing that and they believe that's what a woman or a mother or a wife is. And we have to really ask ourselves, is that the message we're intending to send? Is that the message that we want to send? Or do I want to show courage? Do I want to show?

assertive communication, honesty, self-love in the way that you have permission to show up in your life. You have permission to matter in your life. The things you want to do, the things you've dreamed of doing, the way that you feel safe and that you can thrive is important. And it is, it is important, but we need to be the ones to make decisions and movement in that way to show our children that that's possible. And not only possible, something that they are entitled to. They can...

choose to value themselves and their own dreams in that way, regardless of having to make adjustments. And that adaptability is also a really, really important quality for all of us to have. But if we can see it as teaching our children how to be adaptable, being able to guide them through things that are challenging instead of, gosh, I'm making this decision and it's going to ruin their family or...

take away something from them, but we're also offering them opportunities. Yeah. Yeah. think that was really the most, when I think about what really spurred me into taking the tough actions of pursuing the separation and then the divorce after that was just this heavy, heavy conviction of like, is this

LISA MITCHELL (11:49.386)
Is this what I want my daughter to think a marriage should look and feel like? Like if I saw my daughter, and again, she was so young, she was three. And so it seemed like, well, why are you thinking about this now? But it's like, I, you know, fast forward 20 plus years and I see my daughter inside of a marriage that looks and feels and operates like mine is currently doing, am I going?

am I going to feel like she is safe and loved and it's good, or am I going to be worried and sad and encouraging her to put herself first? again, at three years old, it's really hard to like give that conviction power, but it really was the thing where I was like, I would be so sad for her if this is the marriage that she finds herself in.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting that you say that because that was sort of my tipping point as well. My children were one in five when their father and I got divorced. And that was a big part of my process, kind of having to recognize that whether I stay or go, it impacts my children. There's no way they're not impacted. I'm their parent. My decisions impact my children. And that's a responsibility that's heavy on all of us about any number of things. But certainly when it comes to decisions such as such

with such weight as do I keep this marriage together or not? But really kind of having to think, this what I would I be happy if my daughter was in this marriage or this relationship or was experiencing things the way that I was? And the answer was a very clear no. And being able to turn kind of the love and hopes that I have for my daughters inward and say, you know, if I think that they should have that, I have to show them that I deserve that as well.

Yeah. If I can't love myself and, you know, they look up to me and see me as, you know, the example of what a woman is or an adult is. And so there's there is that responsibility beyond, you know, having that intact family. Well, what is that worth if I'm not feeling loved, cared for or capable of being myself? That's not something that I ever wanted for them. And so it couldn't be what I accepted for me.

LISA MITCHELL (14:09.122)
That's a hard pill to swallow when you get to that place. And that kind of honesty with yourself is challenging too. It is very convicting. And to your point earlier about like kind of the expectations or the societal expectations. for me, I was raised in a family where my parents are 50 plus years married, a Christian conservative background. didn't grow up with any.

divorced friends or there really was no divorce in my family. And so I was kind of the first one to make a different decision. Now, I will say, I don't know that, I think there's probably other people in my sphere of influence that should have gone a different path and didn't for whatever reason. I joke that there's not, you shouldn't get awarded for longevity.

There's so many people that are like, anniversary. it's like, yeah, but you can like hate each other. What are you like, what are you doing? Why are we giving you a blue ribbon for another year past when you're miserable and it's unhealthy and whatever. But that's, that's a whole nother episode. But I think, I think the more that you can find that supportive, whether it's, it's through counseling and therapy and, whether it's through, you know, podcasting communities like this, or whether it's.

through broadening your lens a little bit and really looking at the reality of the people around you, that can help give you some borrowed courage as well to do. And because I did get a lot of like, not blatantly stated, but like, you're giving up. Like you're not trying hard enough. And I will say, know, bringing it back to the mental health aspect of it, that I'm giving up.

message like stabbed me in the heart because I am not somebody that gives up. And it wasn't again, people weren't explicitly saying this to me. Well, sometimes they were. Sometimes they were. For the most part, it was just kind of like, you sure? Like, did you really try everything? Did you do this? Did you do that? Did you try doing this? Did you both try doing that? And it's like,

LISA MITCHELL (16:27.63)
the time you can't put a bandaid on a bullet hole, right? And like, there are bullet holes. And I think it's like, how do you help people, how do you help people kind of get past that messaging or that persuasion? And it sounds weird, but like, how do you help people get more selfish? To like save themselves and focus on their own mental health and wellness. Yeah, you know.

One of the things that I personally fall back on a lot and also encourage other people to think about is if someone is giving you advice or feedback, but they are living a life that you would not want, it is okay for you to disregard that feedback, to not consider that feedback. Even if they mean well, the reality is the things that worked and were most important and were priorities for somebody else.

can be completely true for them and also have nothing to do with you. And so when we are looking to others only to tell us what's right and what's wrong, we are really misguided because we're not considering the complete uniqueness of our own personality, our life, our dreams, the partner that we do have, the children that we do have, the life that we are living versus the one that we want.

can have absolutely nothing to do with the source of that feedback. And so it's challenging. It's challenging to hear things and to be told things that are hurtful or scary. That idea of, my gosh, I am that failure, that idea of failure. But what is failure to you? Is failure to you a divorce or is failure to you

disappearing into your life, never being able to have things that you want or even relationships outside of your marriage, friendships and family relationships that look and feel the way you want them to. We give up a lot when we give up everything in service of someone else's expectations of us as our partner. And so I think that we have to continue to encourage each other to say,

LISA MITCHELL (18:47.55)
you're allowed to matter in your life. And it sounds a little nuts, like you would think it would be the default thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I think especially once we have children, it's this you don't matter. You have to give everything up for them. And there's some of that that there is a lot of sacrifice when we have children. But are we making that sacrifice in the right direction and for the right outcomes?

That's the bigger question. Right. And what is the cost benefit of that particular sacrifice? Does that then put you in a place where you aren't mentally well and where you aren't emotionally regulated and where you can't meet their needs or be present because you're just associating out of your life all the time? know, like there's always, I found that there's a very big trade off for, there's always a cost. There's always a cost. Like nothing is free. And it's what are you giving up by doing what you're choosing to do?

And I think if more people really took an honest inventory of like, what am I not going to be able to do well because I'm choosing to maintain these appearances or for me, what I noticed more than anything is so much advice I was getting. And I'm sure, you know, people listening to this and watching this, you really think about it, if you've ever sought counsel on, you know, from friends or family or, you know, neighbor groups or whoever your people are, when you're in an unhappy space, the amount

of people that want you to stay in whatever mode is most comfortable to them is crazy. It's crazy because I saw it more like in my, we had a group of a really close group of neighbors. We kind of all hung up or hung out together, driveways at bonfires. We had kids that were all kind of the same age. We were young couples, right? It was just very.

Everybody was kind of going through the things together and we all knew a whole lot about each other. And I disturbed the complacency. And the moment I disturbed the complacency and made the decision to make changes, everybody scattered. Well, I think that's so much though an example of people's behavior towards you is about them. Right.

LISA MITCHELL (21:06.452)
And the reality is that when you make a different decision that feels scary to other people, being around you feels scary. Yes. Because normalizing that idea is like, then if I can, if I sort of digest that and that I see this person maybe feeling happier or having some more freedom, then what does that mean for me? But again, every time we make a major life change, whether it's divorce or moving or changing careers,

or changing religion, political affiliation. There's so many ways that we change. If you really think about it, we do kind of shift people. We lose some people within that change, and then we also gain others. That's sort of a part of life that I think is inevitably happening kind of continuously as a process, and we can just accept that. And divorce is one of those things that will cause that will happen. Absolutely. Yeah, it's a total f-

It's a total flip and you start to realize how many people were present for you because you were easy to be around and you fit the script and made them comfortable and didn't really challenge things. But it was so funny because it was like the second word got out that I was making changes, everybody got real, real nervous because everybody else was the first one. mean, everybody's, you know,

Everybody's bitching about their spouses and whatever, right? We're all in it together. We're commiserating. There's lots of honesty. You know way too much about people. And as soon as somebody decides to make a change where, okay, we're not just gonna stay in this dysfunction anymore, everybody gets real, real nervous because what if somebody else does too? And then when they see you going through the pain of making the change, but then see you thriving on the other side of it, then everybody gets...

nervous to the point of like not even talking to you anymore. So for me, and to your point, like just as many people that fell off, I then connected with other people that could meet the current version of me, which has been lovely and life-giving and supportive and amazing. And I'm very thankful for that. it is, you definitely understand when you can, when I look back on it in retrospect and I filter that advice by like what,

LISA MITCHELL (23:28.3)
What advice did I get that was just simply to keep other people more comfortable with me? You get a whole lot of bad advice. It's not about you. It's not about what's best for you and your mental health and for your child or your children. It is like, what role can I keep you in that makes me comfortable with my life? So you need to keep doing this so I feel OK about me. Yeah, and I would say if a person that

is in your life, whether they're a family member or a friend or from any background. But if that person kind of isn't coming and talking with you about that from a place of what do you need? How is that feeling to you? What is sort of your gut? What does your gut tell you about that? And not asking you, what is that experience like for you right now? How can I support you? And instead, it's the, that's not good for kids.

When I was getting divorced, I'll tell you, my parents were not very happy about it. I love them, but they were not happy about it. They also have been married for 50 plus years. We don't have a lot of divorce in our family. And one of the things my father said to me was that my kids were going to be messed up forever because I was getting a divorce. It's just exactly what you love to hear. Which is what I definitely needed in that moment. hardest part of your entire life. Thanks, Mom. And I kind of took that and of course that

Upset me, but it also angered me but spurred me to this That's not true And I'll be sure you know that yes, because I'm going to put my children first and I'm going to kind of Make the decision to make this the best divorce that can possibly be the marriage was not was not good neither of us were happy and That was really clear in the way that we were

feeling and acting and behaving towards one another and it was this is not going to ever feel good and so the decision needs to be to choose something else that will be the best it can be even if it's not perfect and I understand that not everybody is in a situation where where you know where both people are choosing divorce or that they want that but you know there is an option to choose to make it the best thing that you can for your children

LISA MITCHELL (25:51.502)
Some divorces are awful for children because they're high conflict and it becomes about getting back at the other person. Yeah, the kids are weaponized. The kids are weaponized and you it takes a, you have to consciously make that decision and look at your support system. So are you going to therapy? How are you finding support for that? Talking to somebody who has been through this before and who has raised children co-parenting, talking about that from the beginning.

hey, so you've gone through that long-term piece of this, what do I need to be doing now? What do I need to be thinking about? How can I be communicating with my children? How do I help them through this process? There's a lot of pieces there that you can put into place to assure that it is, I mean, it's going to be jarring for your kids no matter what because it's a big change, but how do we make that look like something that's...

we're doing as a family, we're making this decision as a family, this is what's best for us to all be happy and healthy. And so there's a lot of pieces, but not allowing that feedback to tell you that's the outcome because you get to choose. You get to decide. get to choose. Your actions determine the outcome of the experience that your child has. The actions of both parents determine the outcome. I love when we were planning for this episode, we came to the point of, if this

if divorce is the right decision, the marriage can be really terrible, it can be really broken, but adopting the mindset of how can I focus to make this divorce the best divorce it can be. And that to me was like, because it sounds like, it kind of sounds ridiculous when you're talking about how can I have a good divorce? But I think by centering that as the objective of like,

How can I, so the marriage at some point, you mourn the loss, you understand the decision is made. So if you have made the decision based on the marriage not being fixable for whatever set of circumstances brought you to that decision, like divorce gets to be another act. Like divorce doesn't have to be as terrible and conflict riddled and broken as your marriage did. Which when you said that to me, I was like, what?

LISA MITCHELL (28:16.588)
What? What do you mean? How do you have a good divorce? So let's talk a little bit about, like, I want to shift gears to kind of managing that divorce because you have some really great tips around how do you shift gears from the marriage is terrible, it's broken, I'm hurt to we're going to have the best divorce we can have. Which again, I can't say it without laughing because it sounds conceptually based on all the stereotypes of divorce, really altruistic.

Right? So what are some actionable things? What are some mindsets that you can do to help look at divorce and making the divorce good as a separate entity from the marriage that was bad? Yeah. I mean, I think the first most important and maybe most difficult part is that radical acceptance. This did not work. This is not what I had hoped for. It's not what I had planned for. And this is where I am.

LISA MITCHELL (29:20.43)
Okay, hang on. I haven't paused. I'm just trying to figure out where the volume went.

LISA MITCHELL (29:31.214)
Are you back in your headphones again? Yes, I am. Okay, all right, I think we're back. I have no idea what I did, but it must have been something stupid. So, you know, we're just, we're gonna just keep going. Okay, so let me get this back.

Okay, we're back. Okay. So yeah, that radical acceptance of having to just take that in and that's your internal work. As a parent, this is what's happening. This is what's for the best and fighting it and being angry about it is something that I can work through, but it no longer is a part of the process with my partner, soon to be ex partner.

You know, I'm no longer talking about my emotions about the divorce with my partner. I'm no longer going to them to vent about how I'm feeling or be angry with them about it because now we're shifting into having to come up with solutions together. In reality, when you're going through divorce, whether you like it or not, you're going to have to find solutions. Yeah.

I wrote down from when we were planning, shift away from all the bad shit the other person has done. They won't care or own it. I mean, and maybe they will. And if that's the case, and you really have a friendship in that way, this will be easier. If, like a lot of us that is, you're at that wall, you're not gonna agree about what happened. And you don't have to, because you are not dealing with the relationship together anymore.

You are dealing with that relationship on your own, with your support system, with your therapist, with your friends. And so it's okay to let that, you don't ever have to agree. Yeah, and I think that's like, it was so like one of the best, most.

LISA MITCHELL (31:22.83)
kind of thought shifting piece of feedback that I got was when we were, we weren't even, think in the divorce process yet we were separated and we had gone to counseling and I was like, I'm such a truth centered, justice centered person, right? Like if something's wrong, it needs to be, it needs to at least be acknowledged if not remedied, right? Because that's just what needs to happen. And the advice I got was,

If you are looking, basically the simplified version was if you're looking for your partner to admit or own or acknowledge this for you to be okay, you will never be okay. You have got to find a way to be peaceful by checking another box because that box is incapable of being checked. And that will be the thing that destroys your mental health. If you keep waiting for it,

you will be disappointed every single day of your life for the rest of your life, basically. And he was much nicer about it than that, but that was the gist of it. was like, you have to accept someone's capacity to meet what you need. And when they don't have that capacity, you have to quit expecting it from them. And that I was like, OK, like just it stabbed me in the heart. And then it made perfect sense. And then I was like, OK, cool. I'm going to quit waiting on that then.

Well, if you think about it, giving all of that focus and attention and emotion to wanting something from someone that they're never going to give to you is giving them so much of your life force and your energy. And in reality, you need that in this situation. You need that for you and you need that for your children. They need that from you. And it's OK to decide to kind of like just

Accept it for what it is. Maybe someday it will feel better. Maybe that will come. Maybe you'll come to some sort of really friendly understanding with your ex. I don't know. But maybe you won't. And that's not really under your control anyway. creating that acceptance and peace within yourself of just it is what it is. I wanted something different. It's not what happened. And so now here I am. So what do I do with the rest of my life?

LISA MITCHELL (33:39.87)
How do I get to keep it for me? How do I get to keep the love I have inside of me for me and my children and not give all of that energy to, you know, resistance, resistance of this or fear about what it means about me. What it means about you is you gave your heart and soul to something and it didn't work out and you're brave enough to start re-centering and figure out what's the next best thing. And that's a gift. It is.

It's difficult, but it's a worthy endeavor. I found because again, once I embraced that it, it really did shift and it did give me that energy back to be like, okay, instead of like punching the wall about this thing, I can start building what, what the new thing looks like. it did make such a difference. And I love one of the things you mentioned was, you know, when we were talking that I thought was such a great tip was like working from reality, like getting unstuck. And I think.

when you know what the reality is versus what you wish it was or what it used to be like, it just gives you so much more, gives you such a stronger foundation, I feel like. How do you help people get that reality and start building from there? Well, I think it's kind of that age-old, everybody says, what is it that you can control? And that's really true in this situation. So,

If you're making that decision and you're starting to think about, okay, where do I go from here? You have to look at what are the things within my control? Is it within my control that this is what is happening? No. Is it in my control how I talk about it? Is it in my control how I talk to my children about it? Is it in my control how I'm choosing to move forward this process?

Is it in my control how I talk about my ex to my children or to their family or to shared friends? How do I present myself in a way that is true to who I am and is what I can control? And really, when you're able to focus on those things, you do see a positive improvement because you are not, again, letting that energy go to all kinds of things you're not going to affect.

LISA MITCHELL (36:00.748)
Yes. So really finding those things is what I can control. Where am I moving? What kind of do I want my kids to stay in the same school? Do I want to live in the same neighborhood? Do I want to talk about this with this person or not this person? Do I want to see a therapist? Do I have the right friends? And if not, how can I seek out supports that have been here before and can understand what I'm going through?

There are actually many things that you can control within this. So if the energy can go there, start from that reality and move forward. The more you kind of take ownership of those pieces you can control, the more things come within your control as well. You do feel more in control of your life because the decisions you can make, you're making. Yeah, I love that. And I think even you just stepping through.

that short list of specific things because I found myself really struggling at one point of like everything was changing all at once and there was nothing I could do about it. Right? And for me, that's where I shut down. If it's too big, if I can't check a box one little thing at a time and keep, I can work on momentum once I start going.

But you give me the whole thing in totality all at one time. And it's like the most disempowered space for me personally to be in. Some people manage that big, you know, kind of broad lens way better and are motivated by it. I am not one of those people. That is the quickest way to shut me down, hide, make me fearful, help me start believing all the things, you know, just because things are loud, doesn't mean they're true. And I love that one of the things, you know, that we touched on in planning this was like,

One of the things I got really spun up on was like kind of the, A, I didn't know how the divorce process worked and what the, just the procedural piece of the court was and preparing for it and the hearing of it. So one of the quickest ways for me at that point to be triggered was to have like, well, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna do like, just kind of like the threats, right? Of like, because.

LISA MITCHELL (38:18.85)
The other side of the equation didn't know the procedure either. And I think just understanding, working with professionals, whether it's like we had a couple of podcasts with mediators on that talk about just how important it is to find the reality, find the facts, understand that a divorce proceeding is not a who can say the worst things about your partner or scare or threaten or.

They did this, they did that, they didn't do that. The court does not care. It does not care. And there are rules and there are procedures and there's precedent. for me, once I had those data points, I'm like, okay, I got a little bit of Teflon. Some of those threats and some of that, the things that used to send me spinning and crying and reeling and just super, super fearful and reactive. I'm like, that's not true. That's not real.

Like you might think that's real. I know that's not real. So I'm not going to let you emotionally hijack me by saying that thing to me. And that has been a game changer that has lasted like this entire time. It's like the importance of knowing what is real and true versus what someone says or threatens. Yes. Yeah. Wow. Like what a difference in mental health that makes. And I get, mean, again, that's something that I think there's several ways for you.

to seek that information out. You can always go look it up. can have you have an attorney. There's a lot of attorneys that will do like a free consult. Absolutely. If you are not ready to file something, but you just kind of want to have that, what are the facts? Regardless of what's being said to me, how do I know if I really need to worry about that? You can do a free consultation, but also find women or people that have been through.

this before, especially if you have children, because it's always our kids that that's that. mean, the quickest way, the quickest way to send me spinning was to say something about how I was as a parent or something to thread against my how much time I was going to get with my kiddo or oh my god. Yeah, just immediately sent me. Yes. Off the cliff. Yeah. kind of having those conversations with somebody who's been through it as a friend or as you know, a confidant is is also really helpful.

LISA MITCHELL (40:35.256)
But remember too that allow, if someone is making threats in that way, if your partner is doing that or kind of trying to get a reaction from you and you give that to them, that's like, cool, this works. I'm able to control this person and feel like in control of this situation. And so it's so hard because you're already emotional. You're in that place of not knowing it's the unknown, which is always our least favorite place to be.

But remember that if you don't want to be receiving that kind of threat or emotional reactivity from them, you have to also detach from it. You kind of can't feed into it. can't let fear be where you're making decisions or even communication from because...

When someone is kind of reactive in that way and saying things like that, that's where they are. cannot meet them there or that's the only place you're going to exist in those conversations. And it's so hard. attempt to make a good deal, the best divorce possible. Yes. Two activated, reactive, agitated, hurt people, returning fire at each other is just speaking from experience, not the most productive way to approach this.

But I think one of the things, you've mentioned support, right? And we've already talked about the people who maybe were your support people or your go-to people when everything was fine or they thought everything was fine in your marriage probably are not by and large going to be your best set of support and references as you move forward into something either that they don't agree with, they don't understand, or they don't have experience with. So be open to finding the right...

type of support from the people who can walk through it from a place of either neutrality or a place of true support where your outcome and the outcome for your children are their priority, not keeping themselves comfortable. I had a whole new circle of friends. I mean, I still have, I have my ride or dies, right? Like my girls that are like, no matter what I do, they're showing up, right? Those people, yes. But I found for this specific situation, my friends that had not been through it.

LISA MITCHELL (42:54.146)
were not really my best. They were not my 3 a.m. phone call about I'm going, I have an appointment with an attorney tomorrow or we have it, you know, those were not the people, they love me and that's great and they did the best they could with the capacity that they have, but you have to be, I think, so intentional about finding the people who have the right frame of mind and point of reference and experience to really talk.

truth to you and walk through you with this. At least that was my experience. It was a very different set of people around me for this specific time than it was previous or even really since then. Yeah, I think, you know, it's very hard to know what you need when you kind of start this process. That is still unknown to you. So it's okay to accept that the people who have been around you who haven't been through it would not know what you need either.

And we can, it's important to work from that place too where it's, that's not about you. It's not a reflection of your value, your worth, if you have failed, if you, it's just, everyone is working with what they have. And if someone doesn't have much to offer you in regards to helping you through this process, doesn't mean they don't care. It just means that's not the spot they're going to fill. The good news and bad news always with life is that there are people that come in and they,

are great for a while and sometimes they go, sometimes they stick around forever, but you can always find new people when you're making an effort to seek out those supports. Look for a women's group. There's a lot of like divorced women's group, both online, through different counseling practices. I know some people even set up kind of single mom groups and go out and you can kind of have those conversations and make those connections.

podcast just like this one. Divorce Curious podcast is a great place to find out about lots of things. Yeah. And being open, one of the things that I have found to just be universally true for me is just talking really openly about what my life looks like. mean, oh yeah, I'm divorced. I'm co-parenting. Yeah. Oh, divorce was a great choice for me. I'm much happier. Just openly talking without any kind of shame because I don't feel shame. I don't feel shame.

LISA MITCHELL (45:13.774)
about my life and about my experiences has helped me connect with so many people, regardless of if they're also divorced or have experienced that. Just sort of, this is who I am, these are the things I've learned, this is what I know. It also helps me connect with people who maybe need a little bit of guidance there. I've had a lot of connections where it's like someone who knows someone who is thinking about this, hey, reach out to Maggie, and it's empowering for me.

to even provide that kind of support for someone because it's a weird place. It's a weird period of time. It's unsure. And talking to someone who has been through that is, it's just sort of like you can see the other side a little bit more than you can kind of in the dark by yourself. So those things are really important. It is okay to love friends that you have had for a long time who haven't been through it and also know that

That might not be the person for this topic that you can talk to about all of it. And you need what you need. It's okay to find what you need and who you need it during that time. That's pretty important. Yes. And then I love the other, the other kind of anchor that you recommend is, something that's available to you at any point. You don't have to find the right people for it. It's really being able to root in and stay present.

And one of the tools that you've had success with, that I've had success with, that's a part of my daily practice is meditation. yeah. Love meditation because it's free. Yes. We love all the free resources. Attorneys are expensive. Meditation is free. Yes. It's free. You can do it anywhere. What I would say, especially as you're going through a divorce process and after, through co-parenting as well, is one of the most important things is to be able to find your own voice again.

my own instincts, my own intuition, my own needs, my own emotions, all of that can get drowned out so much when we are kind of fighting through this process of I'm unhappy, I'm unsatisfied, I don't know what to do. We really can lose that connection to ourselves. And meditation is a really great way to allow yourself to let things, let your mind sit down long enough.

LISA MITCHELL (47:33.9)
that it settles, that all of that debris that's flying around, concerns and worries and all of that, and let it settle enough that you can actually hear yourself, your knowing. Reality is we, if we listen, most of the time we know. We know what we need. We know how we feel. We know what we want. And we, there's a whole bunch of other noise that can drown that out.

And so unfortunately in our world, have to fight to make space to hear ourselves and to connect with ourselves in a way that is just us. And meditation is something that can offer that. Oftentimes when we're going through a divorce, we're strapped for money, right? We're paying for an attorney. We're having to get a new house. Now suddenly we're paying for everything and not splitting bills. It can be expensive. But if so, if you can't afford therapy right away, right? Or you can't afford some of these things.

choosing to at least listen to your own inner voice and relearn how to find that and listen to that is going to be really critical for your mental health. And also for kind of knowing, knowing what do I want to do next. Most of us hold all of the answers inside of us. We just don't always know how to access them. This is kind of like a really good way to be able to access more of that, you know, you have a lot of.

intelligence inside us about what we need and how we feel. Yeah, I think the biggest thing meditation has given me is like, it has lessened the sense of urgency of looking for outside resources. Like I definitely still love, you know, all the other support and tools. And I mean, I will fall down a rabbit hole of kind of disappearing away from myself with distractions and social media and listening to other people's voices in my head instead of

really just sitting with myself and confronting, how do I feel about this? What feels right? What feels like maybe there's a misalignment and having those moments of like quiet and honesty and meditation is not this woo woo, clear your mind if you have thoughts you're doing it wrong thing. There's some really great programs, a lot of free resources, lots of podcasts about it and YouTube videos and.

LISA MITCHELL (49:54.226)
you know, I might put one or two in the show notes, just so you have a place to start a program I'm familiar with. I'm sure Maggie's got some great recommendations too, but I think, you know, to, kind of put a bow on things today, I could talk about this forever with you because I, just, I want people so much to know what you know. And I think you just are reinforcing what a lot of people already know internally.

but aren't having reinforced externally. So it's creating doubt. So I think, you know, with what Maggie shared today, the tools, you know, reframing, losing the shame, and even if the divorce, you know, if divorce was not what you wanted, but it's where you are working from reality, you know, being committed to reframing that is like, this is, I'm going to work towards making this the best divorce it can be, which again is like,

It sounds so crazy, but it actually makes so much sense when you think about what that will mean for your mental health, it will mean for the experience that your children have, if there's children involved, you know, and being okay seeking out support and resources that are specifically familiar and equipped to support you with the decisions you are making, the changes that are going on in your life, the feelings that you're having, not everyone, even your traditional

you know, friends and family, like they may not be the people who are best equipped to walk through this with you. So, okay. Any, any last thoughts, any like one burning exclamation point you want to put on anything today? know, the way that I, I now five years kind of passed and through this, one of the things I really appreciate now is being able to see the reality of this is what's happening. Young children.

and thinking to myself, what is the opportunity within this situation? It's not ideal, but there's an opportunity for me and for my children. So how can I focus on the opportunities that are here? And really what that came down to for me was I can't provide my children a perfect life, even if their parents stayed together forever, a perfect life without obstacles, challenges, disappointments is not possible. So this is one of them.

LISA MITCHELL (52:16.578)
This is going to be one. So now I have the opportunity to have them watch me. How am I going to handle this? In what way am I going to guide them? Who am I going to be through this? How can I teach them resilience? How can I talk to them about things that are difficult in a really loving way and also just fully accept their emotions about that and allow there to be space for that and allow them to continue to change their feelings as they grow up and understand things differently.

And I really begun to see it as that opportunity to give them a full perspective of how to overcome the things that are going to come into your path, how to be adaptable, how to accept reality, how to start from reality, how to move from reality and how to really decide what it is that you want your life to look and feel like and make it your job.

and your responsibility and be empowered to do so. And really showing that. And I now feel so grateful for the fact that I have been able to really make that kind of a big part of how I parent and seeing the impact of that on my children being able to really navigate a lot of different things. Having conversations even with their friends when they ask, why do you and their dad live in a different house?

And being able, they can really talk about things in a lot of ways because we've had to do that. I mean, we've had to do it. So if we're going to have to have these conversations, how do I have the opportunity to really give them emotional intelligence with this assertive, direct, honest, appropriate communication? And I think that in so many ways that has really benefited them. And so it's important to see that things aren't going to be perfect no matter what decision you make.

about your marriage. They're going to be impacted, whether you stay, whether you go, that's not something you have a choice about. But what is the opportunity within that for how to show your children, how to move, who you can be as a person, what character looks like during challenging times, how to show grace and move from love, even when that is a hard thing to do.

LISA MITCHELL (54:40.138)
see us and they watch us and I mean how do I be a person? That's what your kids are looking at. How do I be a person? And so being able to really show them that. Show them that in a way that you can feel proud of even if you couldn't give them some you know Disneyland perfect And you're working from a space where you've maintained your energy, you've prioritized your mental health.

So they were getting the fullness of you as their mom. That's one of the things I'm most thankful of. mean, I'm, you know, 16 years, 16 years down the road from the beginning of separating and, you know, having a daughter that I've had to co-parent with somebody. And there's a lot of changes between the age of three and the age of 19. And we actually did a podcast episode that'll be at the time you and I are recording this, her episode will be coming out soon, but.

where I just get to sit down with my daughter as she's now, you know, at a young adult, she's in college and she's. Rode through it with both parents. And we have a very honest discussion about the good, the bad, the ugly, and, and the over the overarching sentiment that she had was. I am so glad. I am so glad the decisions that were made were made.

And I'm so glad that I got to know both you and my dad as individual, healthy, happy, available parents to me. And she's like, I 100 % know that had you stayed together, would have been a miserable experience for me as your kid. I was like, that's, I mean, not everybody has that experience, but for her to say that on her own accord.

and perfect honesty was like, okay, I didn't screw everything up. she would have, she's such a good, I mean, you know my daughter really well. She would have found a way to be fine. Yeah. With your help. I don't know. She's pretty, she's pretty resilient on her own, I must say. Thank God for you. It's all like all sincerity, nothing but gratitude for you. But it was just for me, for her to be able to have

LISA MITCHELL (57:02.636)
really the whole ride as a child. And having individual relationships with her parents in very different households and rules, environments, paces, expectations. She's constantly collating those two worlds in her brain to figure out who she is and the person that she is and how she moves in the world and to just have that affirmation directly from her of like, this was the right decision for the best outcome for me.

And I think so many parents that are in that spot of, I have to stay, or I have to, have to, have to, or the kids are not gonna be okay, like give your kids some credit and give yourself some credit. Kids are really resilient. Yeah. And if you are also able to be that leader, to show them that they're gonna be fine. Yeah. It doesn't mean they're gonna be happy all the time. It doesn't mean they're not gonna be mad at you sometimes about it.

It doesn't mean that there aren't gonna be new things 10 years after a divorce that come up that are concerns that you're like, okay, we're still going through it. That's gonna happen. But whether we're parenting from a place where we're in a family that is all living together and the parents are still married or divorced, you're parenting for the long haul, for a whole person. It is not a child that's going to be a child forever. You are raising someone to be, hopefully,

the goal of fully realized, independent, confident, loving, kind adult. And so they are gonna see that from you. And if you can't show up as your full self, they're not going to know how to do that either. And moms especially are the emotional center of the family. The mom's emotional health determines and informs the rest of the family's emotional health. And I really feel it's important to understand that.

As a mom, your job is not to martyr yourself for everybody else's wellbeing because that's a catch-22. That's a trap. Snaps for that. Loving yourself is loving your children. Caring for your own mental health is caring for your children's mental health. There is just sort of no way around that. And the messaging around that has not really been helpful for families, for women, for children.

LISA MITCHELL (59:25.514)
All of us are our own caretaker. We have to care for ourselves first or what we give to others is not of as much value. so go determining what you need, how to be well, how to be the full expression of who you are is taking care of your children. And so we need to learn to frame it that way. And we need to learn to be able to be accepting of, that's not the way I wanted it to be. This isn't the way I wanted it to be. And yet I have these children.

or this child and I'm here and I'm grateful for them and I have a chance to do something different. And I can take that opportunity and make the best divorce I possibly can. And that's what I have control over. Boom, If these mics weren't so expensive, we would both be dropping them right now because that there's just, there's just no, no better way to say that. I, I think that's the perfect bow to put on this episode and

You know, there really is nothing more important than you protecting your mental health and your energy and whatever situation you're in. And I know for a lot of you listening, you know, you're in kind of that decision point of exploring what it might look like to make some changes or what might help improve your relationship and your marriage, you know, to stay in it. And really the whole point of this entire show and specifically this episode is

to help you figure out that regardless of whatever the next best step is for you on that path, that you will continue to center in care and love for yourself and protect your mental health and whatever decision is next for you on your divorce curious path, that will be the way to have the best possible outcome for you and for your kids if you have them in the equation. So Maggie.

nothing but gratitude, so much, it doesn't even scratch the surface, but I have a significant, like, mother's love for Maggie as just talk about seeking support for the things you need support in. She has been really an anchor and a lifeline for me and my daughter and our household, you know, going through all the changes and phases of life and co-parenting and dealing with the dynamics in two different households. Maggie, you've been

LISA MITCHELL (01:01:45.974)
really just absolutely invaluable and getting us through that. So I encourage you all, if you are in that space, don't be ashamed to ask for the support that you need to find the resources that you need. It is too much for one person to do on their own. And I am not the expert Maggie is, and thank God, because I couldn't touch some of the things you've managed. And that's just the stuff I know about that my daughter shared. She knows more about.

She knows more about the vault than I do and I'm glad for that. That saves my mental health. I'm happy to know everything. takes a village. It really does. So I would encourage you mom to mom, like don't ever be ashamed to tap somebody in as you know, co-conspirator caretaker. I mean, I would, I'm trained in this and I got my six-year-old therapy immediately when we split up just because even if she seems like she's taking it okay.

She needs someone to talk to that is not going to have an emotional response to that. is And a neutral third party, non-emotional stakeholder, no dog in the fight. That has been important. So please seek the resources that you need. We're going to wrap it up here. So thank you all for listening to the Divorce Curious show. I am grateful that you are here. hope, I mean, there were so many important things covered today. Just pull out the one or two things that can help you the most right now.

as you are deciding what your next best step is and do someone else a favor and share this podcast. You probably have people that you are at work with every day, that you are enjoying cocktails with on, know, socially on the weekend, that you are sitting in gyms with, with your kids on the weekend that are probably in a place where they could really use the support and this information. So please share this out with your...

with your network and on social media because I am a big believer that whoever needs to see it will find it. And I would love for you to be a conduit for that. until next time, y'all stay curious and I'll see you on the next episode of the Divorce Curies Podcast.