Why "Giving More" Doesn't Work with Jamila Bradley

In this episode of the Divorce Curious Show, host Lisa Mitchell speaks with Jamila Bradley, who discusses the concepts of kinship, belonging, and the dynamics of relationships, particularly in the context of divorce. They explore the importance of understanding what we owe each other in relationships, the cycle of disinterest leading to contempt, and the societal expectations surrounding marriage. Jamila emphasizes the need for reciprocity and the dangers of over-giving in relationships, ultimately advocating for environments where mutual respect and satisfaction are prioritized. In this conversation, Jamila and Lisa explore the complexities of relationships, particularly focusing on coercive control, self-worth, and the journey of self-exploration. They discuss the importance of recognizing one's own value, challenging limiting beliefs, and the necessity of self-forgiveness. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of understanding personal dissatisfaction and the power of self-validation in navigating difficult emotional landscapes, especially in the context of divorce curiosity.

Takeaways

• Kinship is about what we owe each other in relationships.
• Disinterest can escalate to contempt and hatred over time.
• Longevity in marriage does not equate to satisfaction.
• Over-giving in relationships can lead to devaluation.
• Expectations in marriage often go unspoken and unmet.
• The cycle of resentment can be insidious and gradual.
• Articulating feelings can help in understanding relationship dynamics.
• Creating reciprocity is essential for healthy relationships.
• Entitlement in relationships can lead to exploitation.
• It's important to protect your energy in relationships. Coercive control often masquerades as matching energy in relationships.
• Self-recognition is crucial for personal growth and understanding.
• Challenging limiting beliefs can lead to a healthier self-image.
• Self-exploration requires time and patience without the pressure to act immediately.
• Facing discomfort is a necessary step in the divorce curiosity process.
• Tools like the 'clock and the gun' can help structure self-reflection.
• Self-forgiveness is essential for repairing the relationship with oneself.
• Women must fiercely defend their inherent worth.
• Validating oneself is a powerful tool for emotional health.
• You are the hero of your own story, capable of navigating challenges.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Lisa: Hey, welcome to the divorce curious podcast today. I am so excited. I cannot believe the amount of serendipity that accompanied me getting my next guest on for really all of our benefits today. And I will, we'll tell the story here in a minute, but I want to introduce the other brilliant person here that you're going to hear and see on the screen.

If you're watching this is Jamila Bradley and. Jamila, I am, my gosh, I'm so excited. So I'm going to just be perfectly transparent here. And I totally fangirl. Fangirl, fangirl, hardcore. Her TikTok handle is brightblackhoney and a brilliant handle. And I think an amazing description of who you are and the presence that you show up with on TikTok.

And you posted something, we're going to unpack it here in a minute, but you posted something recently that just literally punched me in the face with the amount of truth it is, and I had been following you casually, and I just Did a total deep dive. You've got an immediate DM. And I was like, I need you to share your perspective, your brilliance, your expertise with the audience here at Divorce Curious Podcast.

So Jamila, thank you so much for jumping on so quickly. I mean, y'all, we really turned this around in like 45 minutes from our first DM to recording this. So I appreciate a woman that works with urgency.

[00:01:24] Jamila: Quick, while the iron's hot.

[00:01:26] Lisa: Right. Do you mind kind of giving people the, the quick rundown, the brief bio on, uh, what you're about, what you're excited to be working on and anything else you want us to notice at the stage for the conversation today?

[00:01:39] Jamila: So Lisa, first of all, just like the feeling is so mutual and I'm so happy that we're mutual and there's no place I'd rather be on 45 minutes notice. But my name is Jamila. I'm currently writing a book about kinship, belonging, connection, all the things, estrangement and abandonment. I spent quite a bit of time working in state systems, studied cognitive neuroscience, and then went through a series of relationships in my early twenties that really left me not just sort of devastated as a person, but devastated in terms of.

an acute awareness of a crisis of kinship and belonging. And so from that point in my process of personal development, in my process of moving through therapy and pop psychology and all of the self help world, I started to glean kind of what works, what doesn't and create some ideas and frameworks that worked for me that now has become a full blown.

Book, toolkit, coaching situation, brand, social media, yapper, the whole nine.

[00:02:34] Lisa: Social media yapper.

[00:02:36] Jamila: Professionally yapper.

[00:02:38] Lisa: Me too. I, and I love it. And I hope you keep yapping forever. The idea in the terminology of kinship, can you give us your working definition of kinship and kinship? Kinship. Kinship.

[00:02:48] Jamila: Yeah, absolutely. So kinship is equal parts covenant and concept. So kin, as we know, are the people that we just call dear and near to us, right? The people that we would consider. To be a part of our communities and kinship in practice, right? Is really what do we believe that we owe each other at the end of the day?

What do we believe that we need as people to feel seen, heard and valued to arrive is the best version of ourselves in our lives and in our communities and our families and our workspaces and beyond. So the exploration of kinship really is about the more of the degrees of nearness and the degrees of separation and what are the baseline states we need to occupy, whether it's conflict, resolution, self respect, self actualization, understanding how to listen well and work with our neurobiology, all of these different things to create and strengthen these bonds.

[00:03:38] Lisa: I love the part of, of that breakdown that you just gave us, the idea of what do we believe we owe each other, right? We have all of these contracts, and especially, you know, in the context of Divorce Curious, when you think about the covenants and the contracts and the expectations, whether implied or explicit, that comes with that relationship, there is a lot of onus.

I feel like in some cases it's a little one sided.

[00:04:03] Jamila: Yes, a lot of onus without very much ownership, honestly, sometimes.

[00:04:09] Lisa: Yeah, I think that's one of the, one of the fundamental problems that a lot of the people that I work with and a lot of the audience here at Divorce Curious are struggling with is this idea of, of imbalance or inequity in a relationship where, you know, expectations. aren't being met, and there's no perceived or real effort.

So essentially, it's kind of like relationship abandonment is the term I use for it, right? Like, and you hear, and again, I think my algorithm shows me a lot of it on TikTok, because that's what I'm interested in. But the married single mom is a phrase that comes up a lot, and just this intense, intense loneliness, And abandonment and one sidedness that so many women and, and men too can feel in their, what is supposed to be a partnership or what comes with that.

We owe each other partnership because of the contract that we've both agreed to enter into. I'm curious, from the work that you do, Jamila, how, how are you most commonly seen that inequity? Play out when you're dealing with someone who's coming to you and working in a partnership or trying to work through or make decisions around their partnership.

[00:05:19] Jamila: So something that's very common. I mean, we can always talk about patriarchy. We can always talk about this different standards to which men and women are hold held in our culture and our society. But what I've noticed, actually, very frankly, from lots of different people, I have a husband that I'm actually going to be meeting with in a couple days that is his wife is divorcing him.

And he understands that he is at fault there finally at the end. But something that I have noticed is that people don't recognize the impact of occupying different states for prolonged periods of time. And what I mean by that, right, is. Disinterest or distance at first seems pretty banal, pretty innocuous.

You didn't take an interest. You didn't find something interesting, maybe about a person's day or whatever. When you occupy disinterest for a really long time, that disinterest very quickly without your realizing it becomes disdain. And that disdain can very quickly become contempt and that contempt can actually become hatred.

And so that works in bi directionally, right? Whether it's you're failing to recognize the humanity of the person beside you that maybe is taking on more domestic labor roles, maybe the dynamics of your relationship have changed because of children or whatever the case may be. And so you. Don't find them as interesting anymore.

You're not putting in that effort. It very, very quickly becomes this person that you were so excited to share and bond your life to, to being somebody that you actually don't really enjoy at all. And that's a decision that happens over time, similarly to the death of a thousand paper cuts. And vice versa, when someone's experiencing neglect over time, maybe they're like, Oh, first you're absent.

Then I don't know about you, then every time I do interact with you, it's a negative experience for me, and now I hate you. So that sort of cycle of resentment is what I see happen, particularly for women who are experiencing that emotional neglect and abandonment.

[00:07:04] Lisa: Wow, I'm sitting here with this like dumb look on my face right now because you are narrating my story. And I haven't had until right now, despite all the resources I have and the therapy I've done and the healing journey I've been on, like, I haven't had someone so clearly articulate and put language to the process.

Because it feels like, and I feel like without having kind of the breakdown of, you know, disinterest to disdain to contempt to hatred. Yes. Yes. Like there is this compounding effect and I feel like it's so hard. I know it for myself. It was so hard to articulate. How did we get here? Right. That was a question I got all the time because we didn't have, in my situation, we didn't have a, like a catastrophic betrayal.

Right. At least not that either one of us knew about, like there wasn't. infidelity, there wasn't domestic violence, there wasn't like a reason, and everyone who is attempting or trying to say that they're supporting you, it's like you have to justify, there has to be something bad enough for you. To justify getting a divorce or getting a separation or choosing yourself in 

whatever 

[00:08:15] Jamila: exercising your autonomy, right? Which is really what we're talking about, right? When we choose to be together, when we choose to be in each other's lives, there are expectations that we have. And when those expectations, however, unspoken or previously agreed upon or not, are not being met for that amount of time, we're talking about people's lives here, you know what I mean?

It makes perfect sense to me that a shampoo bottle left empty can become a divorce. How many times did it happen? To what degree did it impact someone's day and demonstrate a fundamental disregard for their time? I'm

[00:08:48] Lisa: Yeah, I mean this idea of compounding that is what I I think you just made it click in my brain Of what I have not been able to Articulate and not that if you're considering a divorce or you decide to get a divorce or you choose to enact your autonomy that you have to justify it, but I feel like sometimes we feel compelled or we try to, but that idea right there like that.

It is a progression. It is a compounding negativity. Holy crap. You just blew my mind. I'm just like that just like finally made it click in my brain. The thing I have been unable to describe for 16 years.

[00:09:25] Jamila: so glad that that just happened. That's amazing. I mean, you're in it. That's the other things. But when you're inside of it, it's so much harder to articulate and reflect what's happening. And this stuff creeps up on you. It becomes your new normal in this very insidious and slow way.

[00:09:41] Lisa: Yeah, and I think that makes you so ripe for the victimization of like gaslighting or minimization. Like what's wrong? Like nothing happened. There's nothing different than there's ever been. I'm doing the same things I've always done to you, but now it's a big problem because it's been compounding and it's not a net zero game at this point where one thing always is weighted the same from a damage standpoint.

Holy crap. I'm going to process this and you're going to, You're going to come back and we're going to go all the way down on this because you just like, yeah, the brain, like, I feel like 16 years worth of unanswered questions just like clicked in a way that finally makes sense.

[00:10:19] Jamila: I was so glad and to your point too of when you have to tell other people and there has to be sort of a inarticulated moment, a capital A abuse or something like that. I think that comes from that same thing where the expectation of marriages are that they are successful and we measure their success by whether they last, not whether or not people are satisfied within them.

[00:10:36] Lisa: Longevity does not equal happy marriage.

[00:10:39] Jamila: And so satisfaction is not a metric by which we measure these things. So that makes it hard too, where it's like, well, you can't expect to be satisfied in your marriage. You just have to make sure the thing stays alive. That's your job.

[00:10:51] Lisa: Yes, yes, yes. I had someone close to me just celebrate with expectations of, of lots of collective celebration around an anniversary milestone. And They don't like each other and it's not healthy. And I'm like, I don't really feel like giving an award for longevity of suffering. What are we doing? Why, why is that the bar of which we decide their success?

[00:11:13] Jamila: In longevity of who is suffering, right, which is the big question. Who suffers to get through, who carries the relationship, who has the expectation anyway to carry it?

[00:11:23] Lisa: Oh my gosh, we're going to need so much more time because. Each one of these ideas is a whole episode. We might have to just do a whole series, Jamila, because this is

[00:11:32] Jamila: I'm not mad. I think putting names and language to things is part of how we like get free and liberate ourself and begin to be able to imagine new things. So I'm honored to have found you. Name something that feels resonant to you. That's amazing, especially with how embedded and invested you are in this work.

[00:11:46] Lisa: it's awesome. And I'll, I'll tell you from a forensic interviewing standpoint. So I, for those of you listening that don't know my background, I'm also a certified forensic interviewer and a big part of what we do. The work of having a successful interview is to establish a common language or understand the person that we're interviewing, what their personal dictionary is.

So my definition of harm may be anything that left you worse off. Then when I found you and who I'm interviewing, his definition of harm may be like rape or kill, right? Like that's, so understanding what is, how do you define that? Like I'm such a proponent of putting language, commonly understood language and commonly understood definitions around things for, for clarity and consistency.

So I love that that's something that you're so intentional about doing with your work, because it makes all the difference and reduces conflict and all the things you already know. But for those of you listening that are wondering why I'm geeking out about this, it's. It really is a core best practice principle in forensic interviewing and, and really in just more healthy and productive communication in general.

So that's my little sidebar on that. So I want to just transition real quickly to kind of what got me hyper this morning and had me stalking you down. via all the social media and email channels to have you immediately jump on and record a podcast with me today, is you did a podcast that started out with the sentiment, essentially, and I, and I'm probably paraphrasing it wrong here, but it was the idea that if, if someone doesn't value something, like just foundationally.

You giving them more of it is not going to make them value it more. Just an absolute punch in the face, right? Because I know in my own story, I'm a type A overachiever. I am a people pleaser. I want to make your life better, easier, right? Like I want to give as much as I can to help other people get what they want or what I perceive them to want, even to my own detriment.

It is one of my fatal flaws. It has shown up for me. Relationally, professionally, it is a lesson I continue to learn even when I think I've healed and have awareness of it and I'm doing different, I, I still somehow end up getting that lesson. And so when I heard you say that and then all the other brilliant things you said after that in your video on TikTok, Oh, I was like, yes, this is something that I feel like so many people, especially women who are evaluating their relationship and thinking, Oh, I don't If I just do more, he'll appreciate me.

If I just give more, if I just do more around the house, if I just maybe cook more of his favorite meals, or maybe if I just do better, he'll appreciate me.

[00:14:30] Jamila: It makes sense to think that way, right? Because in a generous, abundant relationship, culture, society, that is in fact how it works. When we're operating from a place of mutual respect and equity, that should function, right? That should be it. Right. We've all had moments with our friends where they've thrown us a really great birthday party and our first thought is like, Oh, next year, you have no idea what I'm going to do for you,

[00:14:53] Lisa: Right, reciprocity, right? Yeah.

[00:14:55] Jamila: but there's instances, right?

Um, and this is where that, that kind of very simple framing came from, because I was talking in one of my, my sessions with someone who was really, really attached to the idea Of being the bigger person and modeling, not only what good relationship was, but what they wanted to receive. And so I held up two hair clips and I was like, do you need a hair clip?

She's like, no. I'm like, what about two? Even more no. And so, unfortunately,

[00:15:27] Lisa: still no just twice and 

now I'm annoyed that you offered it.

[00:15:31] Jamila: so broken down in such a simple way, she was like, ah, I see what's happening here. And the other thing that happens, especially because of the way that our society is set up around scarcity, around dominance, especially around who holds the power, who's valuable, who's not, when you continue to offer and invest things.

To somebody who is clearly not seeing the value of it, you further devalue it in their mind. And what you convince them of instead is that they are inherently worthy of that. Right. So like, then you're setting up basically an exploitation machine that we see run. All over the place, whether it's about how teachers are paid in our school systems, whether all kinds of things run this way, because unfortunately, The person who cares the most and invests most is seen as having the least amount of power.

And this isn't an invitation to go into scarcity mode to create scarcity in our relationships. I think it's actually an opportunity to go, where would I be able to be abundant and receive abundance back? What are environments where I could go and be, and be this generous and love with the brakes off, so to speak, where other people are doing that too.

Where we don't have to convince of value, where value is the status quo, where reciprocity is the status quo.

[00:16:46] Lisa: And I will tell you that when you are in that cycle of, if I just, if I just do more, if I just give more, if I just serve more, if I just sacrifice more, it is so hard to believe. That there is a dynamic that would not require that of you, where you could have reciprocity, genuine reciprocity, not transactional, right?

Not I do for you, you do for me, because that feels very different. But to have, I think when you're in it and you've been in it so long, you forget that that's just how it should be.

[00:17:22] Jamila: And it hurts. Like, I'm a kind, loving person. I love to love. And so to realize that you're in an environment where you can't do something that is, feels natural and good and nourishing for you. Is awful and frankly, like radically transforms relationships. Like when I've talked with specifically women who have even just backed off date planning or backed off vacation planning or backed off some of the school management, just calling their labor back, not even in a punishing way, like results may vary, but it is.

Very, very clear the reaction that they get from their husbands and partners, because what's happened is we've created a system of entitlement. I don't value this thing, but I still expect to receive it.

[00:18:07] Lisa: It feels offensive.

[00:18:09] Jamila: Yes, it feels offensive because my worldview says, of course, you would give this to me and expect nothing in return.

Because all I should have to do is show up, because like, I deserve it, even if I don't want it. And even if I don't care about it.

[00:18:20] Lisa: Yes. And that is that, you know, there's this kind of a concept picking up up steam on, on social media around the matching the energy. It's, I'm going to match the energy. And, and I am like, I preach about energy all the time. It is the most valuable, most finite resource. We all only have so much, right? So I am a fierce, fierce advocate for protecting your energy and investing your energy because takers.

We'll always find givers.

[00:18:49] Jamila: Yes, but with a huge asterisk on that, because in the same way that maybe sometimes in relationships, and I'm going to be very frank, and I hope that's okay, and for everyone listening, this is just like, I don't pull a punch. A lot of the ways that we do people please and overextend is actually coercive control.

Right. We are trying to coerce behavior from someone. And so what I would argue with matching energy, too, is if you are not just matching energy as a way to preserve yours, so you have more energy to assess your situation, do what you need to do to sustain yourself, if you are matching energy to provoke, inspire, or coerce a response, that is also a big ol path to nowhere.

Because at the end of the day, we cannot control what other people do. We can't. And the illusion of that is still objectification and

[00:19:33] Lisa: so say co coercive.

[00:19:35] Jamila: right? That's, it's a different way, but it is.

[00:19:38] Lisa: me that term again. It's coercive.

[00:19:41] Jamila: Coercive control.

[00:19:42] Lisa: So this is a manipulation side of things where you say you're matching energy but you're really doing it with the intent to provoke.

[00:19:51] Jamila: Won't you miss me, right? Can I get you, once I match the energy, see now how much better it would be if you respected me, appreciated. I

[00:19:59] Lisa: Wow, what a I didn't have the words for it but I played that game.

[00:20:03] Jamila: do. Very well. Very badly.

[00:20:06] Lisa: I don't like it. I am, it is stinging me in my, in my soul right now because

[00:20:12] Jamila: I'm in that photo as well. we're in 

[00:20:14] Lisa: didn't have the language around it, but that is exactly the game I was playing with the intent behind it was not to just match energy to benefit myself. It was to.

Provoking control. Damn girl. I gotta go to therapy after this. This is a lot. This is, this, you are putting language around all the things, all the things, even like I always say, you know, like I don't want to, I can get on my bullshit sometimes, pardon the expression, but I have been on that bullshit. I have been on it.

And based on the TikToks I see, that is status quo for a lot of people under the guise of. Matching energy.

[00:20:49] Jamila: And it's hard to hear, right, because some of those, that content is so comforting, but something that like I wrote down when I was younger, I think I was about 24, this is like almost a, it's over a decade ago, but I wrote something down that was like, if I don't feel seen in this relationship, at the very least I should see myself.

Like, I shouldn't be kind of negotiating and dip dodging what I'm up to, because I'm already up to it, it's already happening, and at the very least I can get good at seeing myself clearly, if no one else is going to. And I think we all deserve that.

[00:21:17] Lisa: I think so too. And it can feel really selfish to feel like you should have the energy and the space to see yourself, which sounds insane because you only live in your own experience. But I, I know my own experience and so many women that I work with, anything that allows us space and clarity and time to understand our own experience and really just affirm our own worth, right?

Like that's what it is at the end of the day is that we're just, we need to know that we're inherently worthy. Not what we do or what we say or what we give, but just inherently worthy by point of existence. It's so interesting to me. But I, I want to challenge anybody listening to this and watching this to think about what are you trying to have seen as valuable by doing more of right now, knowing that on the other side of that is being dismissed.

Being feeling unappreciated feeling unseen and what is your motive?

[00:22:21] Jamila: Right. And why do you believe that you have the things that you have? Do you believe that you only have love, safety, a good job, friends, a roof over your head, because you do things in this way? Because when we get underneath those beliefs and we start to self experiment, we realize we can have all of those things and get them a lot of different ways that aren't that.

Sometimes worse ways, but hopefully better ones.

[00:22:44] Lisa: Yeah, one of my biggest limiting beliefs that I am constantly I mean I work with coaches and therapists and for myself and it's like I Have this weird rule or this weird belief that I can only get the things that I want need and desire through someone else Through serving someone else and I am only as worthy as I am productive for someone else's benefit Those are the two things that have been in my journal for like Probably 25 years now in some way shape or form since I started understanding the importance

[00:23:12] Jamila: And have you been experimenting with them? Like, have you done anything to, because part of the, like, What we need, right, is to counterbalance that data. So we need proof of concept to the alternative. And sometimes we've got 25 years, 35 years of, of that belief system. Have you had success like testing the waters and seeing if there's other ways that you can get things and feel that they belong to you,

[00:23:32] Lisa: Yes, thankfully through good good coaching and therapy right having the tools to challenge and collect the positive evidence, right? The evidence that challenges those beliefs and literally just rewriting them in a way that is true and saying it until it feels familiar to me And that's one of the exercises I do with the clients that I work with is just you have to feel familiar with the new truth, if it is contrary to what you've believed before, right?

And that's exposure, that's repeated exposure, that's hearing it, seeing it, writing it, just until it feels like something that doesn't make you want to challenge it immediately. Because it's so contrary to the belief you've held for so long and just kind of defaulted to in your programming, but it's definitely easier, easier said than done, but, um, I love that you have the tools of the resources and there's nothing comfortable about rewiring your beliefs, especially around your worth, right?

Especially if you have any amount of abandonment, any amount of. Experience with narcissistic partners or family members, right? Like there's a million ways you lose your identity and question your worth that you don't even realize that you carry with you through your whole life. And I think for anyone who's willing to do the work, it does require an amount of bravery to really just kind of grieve the loss of like, Oh, I did used to think I was worthy.

And then when did I stop? There's a whole process around that, but. Yeah, I think that's fundamental in the work and in the context of people who are in this divorce curious space of you got to believe you're worthy inherently and independently if you're going to have any hope of ever having happiness regardless of what you decide to do in your relationship path because you got to defend it.

[00:25:11] Jamila: you have to, you have to be able to defend it. You have to be able to assert it in a world that literally like financially economically has systems that run on it. You know, whether it's hip dips or whether it's retinol or whatever the case may be.

[00:25:25] Lisa: If we were happy with ourselves, so many companies would go bankrupt. So many companies would go bankrupt. So many

systems would 

[00:25:32] Jamila: on a yacht that benefits from you hating your hair, your stretch marks, and then hate them instead. Maybe not hate.

[00:25:39] Lisa: Yeah, it's, it, what was it? It's like the most dangerous economic force is a woman with confidence that can collapse an entire world economy. If, if all the women inherently were able to believe their own worth and what a great world that would be, by the way, let it burn, let it burn, man. Okay, one more thing I want to talk about real quickly is this idea of, and I think you've done a beautiful job of teeing it up for us, is the idea of, you had a quote in one of your videos that I love from James Baldwin, that not everything that is faced can be changed.

But nothing can be changed until it's faced. How would you relate that to someone who is in the divorce curious space that's kind of in this evaluation of what the next best step is for them? With a partner who doesn't really, who isn't in that same spot and is just happy keeping on keeping on.

[00:26:31] Jamila: So, a couple things I would say. First of all, is You don't have to do anything and you already aren't. Like the reason that you're in this situation arriving to a place of discomfort or divorce curiosity or even if you're already fully divested, your whole life is running with you dissatisfied already.

And I know that doesn't inherently sound comforting, but it is because it means now what you can do is not get in the way of you knowing or understanding anything about what's going on for you. You can get to know your dissatisfaction really, really well. You can assess what the risks would be like, and you can do that sitting quietly watching America's Got Talent, and nobody's going to know that that's happening.

You do not need to pretend you do not know things that you know. You do not have to run interference on your own thoughts, your own fears, your own anxieties, and you also don't have to have some perfectly corporalized plan. You can spend time with yourself where you are and treat it almost like a, like a journalist entering a situation.

Like what is going on here? What is happening? What is the dynamic? And you can create systems of validation for yourself and nobody is going to know. I think there's such a An incredible and enormous amount of pressure that people, once they arrive to an understanding of something or arrive to an awareness of something that they have to do something about it, that they have to tell someone about it.

That's not it. You can spend as much time kicking that ball around with yourself as you need to, but make sure that you're validating yourself every step of the way. I was listening to a podcast recently where Brene Brown, she was talking about how she struggles to say no when people ask her for things.

And so something she started to do to buy herself time and situations is turn her ring three times. Like there's little ways that even if you're, you had a moment that you're dismissed and you know what's happening, but you don't want to start the fight, turn that ring three times. Let yourself know that you know.

Be present with yourself in that experience because the more that you're able to arrive to that moment, the more options you're going to see in terms of how to extract yourself or what you want to do in general.

[00:28:41] Lisa: Yes, I think that is like such an important point of, I think that there is this pressure, whether it is real or imaginary, that, well, once I recognize it, once I admit it, once I see it, once I say it, once I share it. Then I have to immediately go in to resolution mode. And I think just taking a moment to pause and reflect on my own behavior, I run, even now, I run from a lot of truth because I don't have the energy to take action.

And I would have to believe that a lot of people listening to this and watching this right now. If you really think about where your mental energy is going and how much you allow yourself or gift yourself or indulge your, I mean, for me, it feels indulgent to spend time in my own feelings because then that's energy and time.

I'm not doing something for somebody else. But when you allow yourself to just even acknowledge like yes, this is a real thing, I am having this feeling, nobody else needs to share this or acknowledge it or affirm it, but it still is true and valid for me, like what an amazing body of research. You start to give yourself about how you operate and how you think.

What are some tools or, or techniques when you're working with your clients? How do you instruct them to, like, capture that or acknowledge that? Is there, are there some tips that you can share with the audience listening now that they could start, like, practicing with? Because it is a practice.

[00:30:19] Jamila: Yeah, it's a practice. So I actually just made a video about this today. I'll share it with you after, but there's something that I do. I've done this since I worked in harm reduction spaces, but I've adapted it significantly to work with relationships. There's this concept called the clock and the gun.

And the clock and the gun is a writing device where if you're writing a story, a novel, whatever the case may be, whatever event you're putting a character through in order to make sure that the event has significance and the character is centered, it needs to have a clock as in a set period of time that it operates and a gun as in what will Ultimately, end it, call it to conclusion.

And those things need to be really specific. So, for example, adolescence usually ends not just because it ends with adulthood. And so there's a transition. And so what I encourage people to do is go, okay, I'm not going to do anything about this right now, but I am still inside of it. So what happens if I center my experience and first of all, go, what am I doing here?

But the trick is the what can't be, I want to save my relationship, or I want to make sure that my kids, the what has to be a fully self possessed, things that you have control over, things you could potentially learn, what am I doing here? Whether it's in this moment that I'm reflecting with myself, this therapy appointment, this six months that I'm waiting to say that I want a divorce, whatever it is, how long can I sustainably be here?

And when will I close it? And there's a couple details that layer into it of like how to sort of build that, but to then present yourself as the center of an experience. I am here inside of a challenge now. I am the hero at the beginning of the woods that will be looking for things, that will be investigating things, that will be Aware of the fact that I have walked myself into the situation and I will also walk myself out of it in whatever way I need to, whether it's to stop thinking about it and take a walk, put some music on, do some dishes or close the relationship to know that there is that clock and gun and then use that container for the self exploration for the, the delving and the plumbing without the shame that it's going to last forever or the fear that It's going to swallow you up.

[00:32:19] Lisa: What a great tool. It gives a controlled environment to something that can feel at the time very, very out of control. Wow. I love that. We're gonna put a resource or link to, uh, something that, that Jamila offers in the show notes. We'll figure it out. We don't have it. We don't have it yet, but we will because that is a beautiful, constructive, masterful way to Recognize your own experience and provide some space to reflect on it.

So I definitely want to make sure that we have that. Jamila, if you're game for that, of, of helping us provide some sort of resource for the audience where they can just sit down and start practicing that exercise of how they can center themselves again in their process and decision making. Cause I feel like it's so easy to just get lost or to do things for other people that don't.

You don't even know what you want, right? So many, so many people that I work with, just, they haven't had the space and time and tools to even figure out what do, what do I even want my life to look like now and let alone the path to bring that into fruition, right? So I love that, that tool. I want to end with, I don't want to end, but we're going to end this, this episode.

I have a feeling that we're going to be seeing you again because. Everything you say is brilliant and valuable and amazing to this community. But if you had just one piece of advice for a woman who is in the divorce curious space right now, and they're trying to figure out just that next best step for themselves, get some clarity, build some confidence around just the next best step.

What would you suggest they start with to help build that clarity and confidence on that just that next step? Because it can feel overwhelming in totality.

[00:33:58] Jamila: I mean, that sounds mushy and I know it's not the most compelling, but a practice of self forgiveness that actually encompasses repair to take a moment to go, I'm sorry, we're doing a little self betrayal right now, or I'm sorry, this is really hard for us right now to accept that apology and go, what can we offer ourself?

Is it a drive to the nail salon? Is it a session with Lisa? But what do we offer ourselves in that self compassion, self forgiveness? to be able to work to repair the relationship that we have with ourselves. Because that's the one thing that you carried in that you will carry through and that you will carry whether you exit or not is that relationship to you.

So to tend to that

[00:34:39] Lisa: What a way to just give yourself some, some love and attention, right? Like I feel like we all have this version of ourselves. It's like locked away in a closet somewhere, just screaming to be seen and acknowledged and loved, and it's really hard to make good decisions. When you have that, that racket in the background of yourself being abandoned and unloved and uncared for.

So thank you for that beautiful, simple, yet just so important step that can help bring clarity and help bring confidence on whatever journey and whatever decisions are being made. By the people that are listening to this and considering this and just trying to figure out how to get out of stuck into something that serves them better.

And I think that self forgiveness and that moment of acknowledgement and love is so important. Okay, I have so much more to talk to you about, but for the sake of time and commutes here, we're gonna, we're gonna wrap it up. First of all, thank you. Thank you for sharing your brilliance and your heart, and it's so clear that you are so passionate and so committed to the work that you are doing, and it is, it is so important, and I'm glad that now more people are going to know about you and be able to connect with you to learn from your wisdom, but where can people find you, learn more about your work, support you?

Where do you want people to go from here to, to see more of you?

[00:35:52] Jamila: bright black honey anywhere on the internet, I'm bright black honey everywhere except YouTube. I'm Jamila Bradley. That's my name. That's where you can find me. And so if you're looking for that kind of content, understanding relationships better, understanding yourself better, With a very human sensibility, very, I hope, similar to Lisa's, then that's where I'm at.

[00:36:12] Lisa: Wonderful. And I'll link all this up in show notes as well. We'll, we'll send you to all the places that you can connect. Jamila, I, her TikTok channel is gold. I swear every time she pops up on my screen, my day gets better. So thank you for continuing to put the effort in to, to create meaningful and really affirming content.

For people that are, are walking through really difficult things in their life, I just want to acknowledge you and your just absolute lack of, you don't gatekeep, you're very selfless and sharing your experience and what you know, so thank you for that. So we'll link up in the show notes, uh, you're going to be able to find, uh, Jamila, Jamila everywhere at brightblackhoney, go to TikTok now, find her, follow her.

Give her some love and then if you want to connect more on the divorce curious front I've been playing around with some some cool tools And I my main goal in life right now is to connect with the people who want to connect with me And so I'm pretty much everywhere I've even set up a new voicemail system where you can just click a button and record a quick voice message to me and we Can start a dialogue that way And I can start getting you resources and perspective and sending you to great people like Jamila that can help you and fill in the gaps that I am not the expert in, which I'm always happy to do.

But you can get to my voicemail option from the link on my TikTok, which is divorce curious podcast. There's a stand store link there. It's the first thing you can do. You hit the button, you send me a voicemail. I'm super psyched about it. I hope I get a hundred voicemails just because Cause I like to play with new toys or you can always go to divorce curious help.

com, which is my website and find all the ways to connect with me there. That's kind of ground zero for everything that I'm doing and offering right now. So here's what I want to say, take the next step, take that moment, give yourself a little bit of forgiveness, give yourself a little bit of love. You're going to see your confidence and your clarity grow from there.

In the meantime, y'all just stay curious. Stay curious, keep loving yourself, and we'll catch you on the next episode.